How does one choose?

[FlyingTeaPot]

I hear people say that they don't need God to be moral.

My question then is how is a person to choose?

I suppose that a position could be taken that everything is moral. Then murder and rape and beastiality and torture are all fine and dandy.

One could look at things logically. For instance Jezebel had a logical solution for Ahab's desire for a man's land. Simply kill the man and take his land.

Can a person rely on laws or traditions?

There once was a law that stores couldn't open on Sunday now there is no such law. Evidently laws change according to what people wish them to be. It used to be that holidays were celebrated on the traditional day but now holidays are often selebrated on a convenient monday. Evidently traditions change as well.

I believe morality is less of a choice and more of a cultural event. It is constantly changing and is never subjective. I think we have come sufficiently far into the human condition to agree upon what is objective morality for everybody. Sadly, not everyone is in agreement because of their cultures or religions or traditions. It is laughable to me when religious people ask me how I can be moral if I don't believe in a god. No one needs a god to be moral. We are always more moral than our gods because the gods were invented much before our time.

 

[Muffled]

I believe morality is less of a choice and more of a cultural event. It is constantly changing and is never subjective. I think we have come sufficiently far into the human condition to agree upon what is objective morality for everybody. Sadly, not everyone is in agreement because of their cultures or religions or traditions. It is laughable to me when religious people ask me how I can be moral if I don't believe in a god. No one needs a god to be moral. We are always more moral than our gods because the gods were invented much before our time.

This only works when the culture is good. Now that the culture is turning evil, the morality will be evil.

No one has ever proved that gods are invented although it seems possible particularly with animism. Not all gods are alike. The Greek gods were highly immoral but Jehovah is the author of all that is right.

 

[Looncall]

This only works when the culture is good. Now that the culture is turning evil, the morality will be evil.

No one has ever proved that gods are invented although it seems possible particularly with animism. Not all gods are alike. The Greek gods were highly immoral but Jehovah is the author of all that is right.

All that is right, eh? Like genocide, slavery, family abuse etc? Pull the other one, it has bells on it.

 

[Muffled]

All that is right, eh? Like genocide, slavery, family abuse etc? Pull the other one, it has bells on it.

Can you say this rationally?

Are you saying that a culture of slavery is right?

How does one choose? It appears to make a lot of sense to make slaves out of people who aren't as strong. It makes a lot of sense to beat on women and children who aren't as strong. It makes a lot of sense to kill of people you don't like if you have the power to do it.

 

[waitasec]

Can you say this rationally?

Are you saying that a culture of slavery is right?

How does one choose? It appears to make a lot of sense to make slaves out of people who aren't as strong. It makes a lot of sense to beat on women and children who aren't as strong. It makes a lot of sense to kill of people you don't like if you have the power to do it.

according to your god, yes.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Can you say this rationally?

Are you saying that a culture of slavery is right?

No, they're clearly saying the exact opposite of that.

How does one choose? It appears to make a lot of sense to make slaves out of people who aren't as strong. It makes a lot of sense to beat on women and children who aren't as strong. It makes a lot of sense to kill of people you don't like if you have the power to do it.

It's called empathy. You don't need a God to do it - much less a God who actually justifies slavery.

 

[Looncall]

Can you say this rationally?

Are you saying that a culture of slavery is right?

How does one choose? It appears to make a lot of sense to make slaves out of people who aren't as strong. It makes a lot of sense to beat on women and children who aren't as strong. It makes a lot of sense to kill of people you don't like if you have the power to do it.

Then eventually, your society will fall apart and you will starve in the cold and dark. The point of view you describe is silly in the extreme.

 

[Marcion]

Leaving religion aside, in mysticism morality and moral behaviour is just a means to an end. The general force behind or within the universe takes proper care of all of its creatures. So if we are to better join that force from the inside, we should become more like it and imitate it.

There are 2 ways to imitate and join it. One way is to increase our love for it, or fall ever increasingly more in love with it and the other way is to express that love by serving it through its creatures.

The best morality, the best set of moral codes has to fulfil these 2 aims by making our do's and don'ts more detailed and explicit in a logical way.
So morality is not a set of codes that God drops from the sky, but rather it can be and has been discovered by those mystics who learnt the proper way how to realise your true Self.

Of course in religions they have myths about how their particular sets of moral codes were "revealed".

 

[Looncall]

Leaving religion aside, in mysticism morality and moral behaviour is just a means to an end. The general force behind or within the universe takes proper care of all of its creatures. So if we are to better join that force from the inside, we should become more like it and imitate it.

There are 2 ways to imitate and join it. One way is to increase our love for it, or fall ever increasingly more in love with it and the other way is to express that love by serving it through its creatures.

The best morality, the best set of moral codes has to fulfil these 2 aims by making our do's and don'ts more detailed and explicit in a logical way.
So morality is not a set of codes that God drops from the sky, but rather it can be and has been discovered by those mystics who learnt the proper way how to realise your true Self.

Of course in religions they have myths about how their particular sets of moral codes were "revealed".

How do you know that any of this is true?

Why not just apply this love to your fellow living beings? Why bother with some imagined "force"?

 

[Marcion]

Why not just apply this love to your fellow living beings? Why bother with some imagined "force"?

Well, that even would be a huge start, most people love only those who love them back.
The thing is, if you tie up your love only with your preferences, it is still not devoid of selfishness and therefore it is not the unconditional love you want to achieve.

The mystic is not satisfied with partial love only [e.g. love only for humans] but wants the original thing that lies at the base of it all.
And such universal love is tied up with the source behind or cause of the creation, whether that pleases you or not. You don't have to acknowledge it to start practising, buddhists e.g. don't bother either.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Well, that even would be a huge start, most people love only those who love them back.
The thing is, if you tie up your love only with your preferences, it is still not devoid of selfishness and therefore it is not the unconditional love you want to achieve.

The mystic is not satisfied with partial love only [e.g. love only for humans] but wants the original thing that lies at the base of it all.
And such universal love is tied up with the source behind or cause of the creation, whether that pleases you or not. You don't have to acknowledge it to start practising, buddhists e.g. don't bother either.

Mahayana
Brahmavihara

 

[Looncall]

Well, that even would be a huge start, most people love only those who love them back.
The thing is, if you tie up your love only with your preferences, it is still not devoid of selfishness and therefore it is not the unconditional love you want to achieve.

The mystic is not satisfied with partial love only [e.g. love only for humans] but wants the original thing that lies at the base of it all.
And such universal love is tied up with the source behind or cause of the creation, whether that pleases you or not. You don't have to acknowledge it to start practising, buddhists e.g. don't bother either.

How do you know there is any such source?

 

[incited]

Morality isn't as much as a choice as we think it is. We're acculturated to it. We develop it within our social context and upbringing. If we were all born in the wild's of no man's land where people kill each other left and right for insulting someone's goat, we'd probably end up killing people left and right for no good reason too.
We're kind of "brainwashed" into judeo-christian morality in the Western World.

 

[Muffled]

according to your god, yes.

I have never seen a verse saying so. There are verses that indicate that it is condoned, so it isn't necessarily evil in and of itself. In fact Christianity is a form of voluntary slavery. Our whole world works on forms of voluntary slavery ie the employer/employee relationship.

However the rescue of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt suggests that God is not pleased when the relationship is abused or people are held in slavery against their will.

 

[Muffled]

No, they're clearly saying the exact opposite of that.


It's called empathy. You don't need a God to do it - much less a God who actually justifies slavery.

OK. I have empathy for a slave since I am one and I find it to be right for me so it must be right for others also. It can't be right and wrong at the same time. I can see why some would not choose this path but not because it is wrong or wrong for them but simply becasue they have a preference as in some choose to eat meat and some don't.

In this case He doesn't do it just as He doesn't say that you can't eat meat. (As an empath I might feel for the animal and not eat meat but I don't believe it is wrong to do so)

I have never seen a justification. God rarely explains what He does because He knows that everything He does is good.

 

[Muffled]

Leaving religion aside, in mysticism morality and moral behaviour is just a means to an end. The general force behind or within the universe takes proper care of all of its creatures. So if we are to better join that force from the inside, we should become more like it and imitate it.

There are 2 ways to imitate and join it. One way is to increase our love for it, or fall ever increasingly more in love with it and the other way is to express that love by serving it through its creatures.

The best morality, the best set of moral codes has to fulfil these 2 aims by making our do's and don'ts more detailed and explicit in a logical way.
So morality is not a set of codes that God drops from the sky, but rather it can be and has been discovered by those mystics who learnt the proper way how to realise your true Self.

Of course in religions they have myths about how their particular sets of moral codes were "revealed".

Are you saying that one should choose the "Omnipotent" because might makes right?

How is this possible?

Are you saying more detailed laws are better laws? The Jews have the Talmud. Does that make it the best religion? Also it seems most likely that those detailed laws didn't come from the omnipotent but from the sinful mind of man.

 

[waitasec]

I have never seen a verse saying so. There are verses that indicate that it is condoned,

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I have never seen a verse saying so. There are verses that indicate that it is condoned, so it isn't necessarily evil in and of itself. In fact Christianity is a form of voluntary slavery. Our whole world works on forms of voluntary slavery ie the employer/employee relationship.

I can't even begin to explain what is wrong with the above statements...

 

[waitasec]

and to think, people with this line of thinking are able to vote.

 

[Thief]

So much digression.

I looked it up in the dictionary...just for fun.

Choosing morality?...as compared to not doing so?
There are four basic motivations....
religion, politics, military, and economics.
Humans can function quite well under any of these...and we do.

So where does the word morality fit in?
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you....
regardless of what motivates you.