How easy is it for Trinitarians to misread the scriptures?

[YoursTrue]

Absolutely right!!

Only God sent his only begotten to redeem fallen mankind and eventually stop ruining the earth. That He created.

 

[rrobs]

He made the earth. It is written He will restore the earth and get rid of all causes of unhappiness. Isaiah, Revelation and more indicate this. I agree if Jesus were God in the flesh, he would not have the need to pray.

Yes, and had he been God, he would have talked to himself an awful lot.

 

[sojourner]

Can I politely explain that ‘standard Trinitarian doctrine’ is false doctrine!

Can I politely explain that your refutation is faulty?

You will know from your history lessons that at one time the Christian CATHOLIC church was adamant that the Earth was the centre of the [solar system]... and you now know that that was completely false, too!

How is this relevant to the doctrine of the Trinity? Most other religions also believed the earth was the center of the universe. In fact, Genesis alludes to the centrality of the earth in the first creation narrative. Additionally, when the Church came up with the doctrine, it wasn't the "CATHOLIC Church," it was simply "the Church."

Now, you know that this analogy is total crap.

Most analogies fall flat if carried too far. So what? The analogy is neither the doctrine, nor an official definition of the doctrine. It's a tool that may be found either useful or not.

Of course it doesn’t work either.

See above.

Trinity FAILED AGAIN!!!!

No, the doctrine hasn't failed. You're conflating the doctrine with a couple of analogies, none of which are the doctrine. The "states of water" analogy is heretical -- it represents the heresy of modalism. Of course it doesn't work. But just because someone uses it, does not mean that you get to transmute the Trinity into modalism and then claim that the Trinity is false. All you've managed to do is to create a straw man argument.

So, please don’t argue about trinity Christianity because we know that it is false and you can always find it’s faults with ease.

So please don't argue about Trinity Christianity because we know that it is true. One can find fault with any theological construct, because none is a be-all-end-all.

When you argue about Christianity, please argue with the SCRIPTURES... and, respectfully, not misinterpretations, mistranslations and misunderstanding of the trinity fraternity.

1) So... we can only argue from your point of view and understanding? Not much of a debate if you're hoping to stack the deck in your favor. Sounds a lot like "cheating" to me...
2) We don't buy into the sola scriptura heresy, and so we may legitimately argue from Tradition, extra-Biblical Apostles' teaching, and other extra-Biblical materials.
3) No one's using "mistranslations."
4) "Misinterpretation" is a faulty parameter, since the Biblical texts, themselves, are multivalent and will support any number of legitimate interpretations -- many of which you may not agree with.
5) Your own misunderstanding of the doctrine is generally greater than our misunderstanding of it. Looks like you've never bothered to actually read it.

The body of both were made with inert material (Adam, the dust of the earth; Jesus, the seed of a woman)

False. The human egg is not "inert material." Right off the bat, this argument is an epic fail.

Being so made, they both were sinless and holy

Really? How does "being made from 'inert' material" constitute "being sinless?" How's that work? What's the scientific criterion by which that statement has any credibility?

Jesus is called, ‘The second Adam’... or more emphatically, ‘The LAST ADAM’! He is a replacement for the fallen first Adam

Sooo... "Jesus replaced humanity." Really? Srrsly?? That's your epic soteriological statement? "Jesus replaced humanity?" Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus replaces us in order to save us. Nowhere. Talk about a "misinterpretation" and a "misunderstanding."

• Seth replaces Cain

• Isaac replaces Ishmael

• Jacob replaces Esau

• Joseph replaced ... (his elder brother)

• David replaces Saul (1st king of Israel)

• Solomon replaced ... (his elder brother)

Except that "replacement" isn't really the understanding here. The elder son not inheriting is a theme that stands against the practice of primogeniture, as a "given" that creates entitlement and inequity. Jesus said, "The meek will inherit the earth," "God's kin-dom belongs to the least of us," "Enter by the narrow gate," and "Not all who call 'Lord, Lord" will inherit." But you're welcome to try again. Additionally, the Song of Mary says, "God has scattered the proud in the imaginations of their hearts, God has put down the mighty from their seat, and has exalted the humble and meek. God has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich God has sent away empty." And Isaiah speaks about lowlands being raised and hills being brought down. It also speaks of rough places being made into plains" This isn't about "replacing," it's about equity.

• Jesus was taught by his spirit Father (YHWH) what to say and do - and was dutiful in all things (the fullest and true meaning of ‘Son’!!!)

• But he knew that he had a difficult job to perform.. like Abraham with Isaac, Jesus knee he had to be sacrificed by his Father .... in order to remove the sin of Adam... he remained dutiful dispute being tempted to ‘find another way!’. Jesus fulfilled his task having faith that his Father would resurrect him from the dead!!!

• In accomplishing the sinless death and the eternal resurrection jesus removes the terms sin of Adam and we are now left with only our own sins to condemn us... but Jesus offered us hope if we followed his and his Father’s commands

• Jesus was taken up to heaven and seated NEXT TO GOD... (he cannot BE GOD if he is NEXT TO God!!)

• But now Jesus’ role is to restore sinlessness back to the whole world. He does so by use of the Holy Spirit of God (Holy Spirit of the Father). Consider the famine in Egypt and Joseph (Skinny to Jesus Christ) overseeing the restoration back to a harvest (sinlessness) by the power of the signet ring (the Holy Spirit) of the Pharoah (Akin to God The Father)

• And finally, when all is restored, Jesus is rewarded with RULERSHIP OVER THE CREATED WORLD - he becomes FATHER to all selected humanity who believe in God and Christ

• Think of these terms:
  1. ‘God’: Rule maker; sovereign; judge; greatest; worshipped one
  2. ‘Father’: Creator; Giver of life; rule maker; the head; King (Monarch)
  3. ‘Lord’: Master; overseer; shepherd; leader

• Before Jesus, God was also ‘Lord’. He was all of the definition of ‘Lord’... but in these latter days he has delegated his Lordship to his Son so that his Son may be glorified by his creation. Do not claim that there are two Lords nor that both God and Jesus are the SAME Lord... a delegate does not claim to be the master who made him a delegate nor an emissary claim to be the king who sent him on his errand!

• And notice in the book of Revelation that Jesus (the lamb) is NEVER WORSHIPPED... only ‘He who sat (sits) on the throne’ is worshipped. Jesus (and God) are rightfully both PRAISED, HONORED, and GLORIFIED... but only God is worshipped...

A biased apology that is not germane to the topic.

If we exclaim loudly that trinity is false, would it make any difference to you claiming you found a fault in Christianity or attempting lamely to uphold trinity?

If we exclaim loudly that the Trinity is true, would it make any difference to you claiming you found a fault in Christianity or attempting lamely to uphold heretical doctrine?

 

[sojourner]

Absolutely right!!

And yet, the Bible outright calls God "our Redeemer." This is terrible theology that is indefensible.

The Tares grow and look exactly like the Wheat... only when it fruits can the difference be seen: only at the end will the truth be known completely!

and yet, somehow, you seem to be able to magically see the difference! Amazing! And do you know what happens to the weeds in the end? Do you really know what Matthew is getting at, or is this just another theological "air ball" because you're not paying attention?

I follow the line that Jesus is Holy sinless man: a replacement for the sinful Adam

Terrible theology.

I believe that because of this Jesus now sits in office of God (Just as Joseph sat in the office of Pharoah) redeeming the whole of mankind back to God. All our own sin and destruction is now in our own hands; our own responsibility!!!

See above. This theology makes Jesus self-sacrifice ineffective. And if ineffective, why did it have to take place?

Finally, Jesus will select whom he will from among mankind to be in HIS KINGDOM... the rulership over creation and be its ‘Eternal Father’.

Jesus chose all of us. That's what Matthew's getting at.

You will read that Satan is the STEWARD over creation still at this time:

You will also read that Jesus is Lord. somehow, it seems better to claim Jesus as Lord rather than Satan. One anticipates love. The other dreads hate.

People, choose your camp but don’t expect to persuade anyone else... Dias I do: just post as best with the truth

And yet, you seem to have failed in this humble endeavor...

 

[sojourner]

Yes, and had he been God, he would have talked to himself an awful lot.

Do we not all hum the same sacred tune of creation? Do our hearts all not beat within the one Heart?

 

[cataway]

I doubt that. It's kind of hard to prove that Christian's don't know their own scriptures. That would mean there are Christians who Do get it?

you are incredibly naïve

 

[Unveiled Artist]

you are incredibly naïve

I try not to generalize the whole population of christians. JW are no more different than catholics than protestants than non-domination religious and "spiritual and not religious." Naive is one thing but generalizations of a whole population, that perspective sounds more ignorance.

 

[cataway]

I try not to generalize the whole population of christians. JW are no more different than catholics than protestants than non-domination religious and "spiritual and not religious." Naive is one thing but generalizations of a whole population, that perspective sounds more ignorance.

sure you can claim ignorance if you like . actually there is a world of difference in JW and Catholics

 

[Unveiled Artist]

sure you can claim ignorance if you like . actually there is a world of difference in JW and Catholics

You missed the point.

JW, Catholics, non denominations, and "spiritual but not religious" Christians tend to think they are all right about the Bible and their views on the Trinity. That's. What they all have in common.

Of course. Each are different in theology. That's not the point.

 

[YoursTrue]

You missed the point.

JW, Catholics, non denominations, and "spiritual but not religious" Christians tend to think they are all right about the Bible and their views on the Trinity. That's. What they all have in common.

Of course. Each are different in theology. That's not the point.

Interesting that in love and in theology, the religions can be quite different.

 

[Muffled]

Why wouldn't majority Christian's not know this?

I believe we know it, so what's the point?

 

[Muffled]

mainly because the majority of Christian's don't read and study the bible . they believe what they want to believe or believe what they are told to believe

I believe the majority of Christians are not on RF and the ones here know the truth.

 

[Muffled]

Speaking of a just God, many religions claiming to be Christian within the past several decades have turned their back on the eternal torture hellfire doctrine.

I believe a just God can send people to Hell.

 

[rrobs]

Interesting that in love and in theology, the religions can be quite different.

And yet:

1Cor 1:10,

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
​

Somebody's not reading what's written.

 

[cataway]

Interesting that in love and in theology, the religions can be quite different.

yep different as night as day

 

[cataway]

And yet:

1Cor 1:10,

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
​

Somebody's not reading what's written.

true . it would likely interfere with what they ''want'' to believe

 

[cataway]

I believe a just God can send people to Hell.

if you's are willing to do enough bible study its even possible to learn that hell is nothing more than the grave where the dead are put

 

[rrobs]

true . it would likely interfere with what they ''want'' to believe

1Cor 1:12,

Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
​

When this verse was written it looks like there were 4 different denominations. Today we have 40,000 plus and counting!

I suppose there are a few hard to understand places in the scriptures, but the vast majority is written at about an 8th grade level, so it ought to be easy enough to agree on what they say. But, as you said, people already know what they want them to say and, to them, that's just what they say.

For example, they want three gods and that's just what they find, despite the hundreds of time God declares Himself to be one. But most already "know" there is a trinity before they even crack the book for the first time. Just shows the power of oft repeated lies, in this case 2,000 years worth of lies. Can't blame the individual. It's what they've been taught and that's what they will believe. Still, it's not hard to find verses that say Yahweh is the one true God and Jesus is His son (so the NT declares at any rate). In what world is a son also his father?

Take care.

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe a just God can send people to Hell.

It depends what you think is hell. Despite that, some claim it wasn't fair for God to drown people in the flood.

 

[YoursTrue]

1Cor 1:12,

Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
​

When this verse was written it looks like there were 4 different denominations. Today we have 40,000 plus and counting!

I suppose there are a few hard to understand places in the scriptures, but the vast majority is written at about an 8th grade level, so it ought to be easy enough to agree on what they say. But, as you said, people already know what they want them to say and, to them, that's just what they say.

For example, they want three gods and that's just what they find, despite the hundreds of time God declares Himself to be one. But most already "know" there is a trinity before they even crack the book for the first time. Just shows the power of oft repeated lies, in this case 2,000 years worth of lies. Can't blame the individual. It's what they've been taught and that's what they will believe. Still, it's not hard to find verses that say Yahweh is the one true God and Jesus is His son (so the NT declares at any rate). In what world is a son also his father?

Take care.

I didn't always believe in God... especially not a trinity. When I studied with trinitarians they showed me John 1:1 and I thought ..what? How is Jesus God yet with God? But I stop there.