How Exactly Did The Russians Influence The U.S. Elections?

[Underhill]

So you are basically saying is that the odds of Hillary losing the election was due to her, the DNC, and her campaign staff and it was Wikileaks that was only the messenger (hacking is still illegal). 10-4 big buddy.

I'm saying that without the hacking and the FBI talking up her investigation, while ignoring Trumps, in their briefings Hillary might have been president.

I'm not claiming she was the ideal candidate. But then Trump was at least as bad on every front (and I think worse on many).

 

[Revoltingest]

Except there is evidence. You just don't seem to understand it.

Failure to understand is the 2nd step.
The 1st is to present the evidence.
You haven't yet done that.

We've talked about signatures before. It is also possible to track the source of most hacking. So there is evidence. The fact that the CIA isn't handing it over to Revoltingest for his perusal doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You're stating that evidence exists.
This is not presenting it.

It is theoretically possible to fake these things. But it's like fingerprints. Is it possible to cut off someones finger and use to to tie them to a murder? Sure. Is it likely? No.

You say something is likely, but without evidence.
We're to take the word of agenda driven government agencies, who
are neither certain nor in agreement about their secret evidence.
And even if it turns our that Evil Ivan did it, how is it actionable info?
No one has proposed any reasonable change in course.
So we have an unevidenced conspiracy theory which has no value even if proven.
The only reasonable explanation is a post-loss tantrum.

 

[Underhill]

Then explain to me why you think this if we are at the top of the list for the most money spent on education
U.S. education spending tops global list, study shows

I suggest that the problem is more along the line of what Underhill said in post #214 than money

It's one of the few times you will find me disagreeing with metis. There are many instances of Republicans starving the beast, and charter schools are a dangerous game, but nobody goes after education spending if they want to get re-elected.

 

[Underhill]

Failure to understand is the 2nd step.
The 1st is to present it.
You haven't done that.

You're stating that evidence exists.
This is not presenting it.

Well if you are going to dismiss the experts who have said they've seen it, then we are done. Obviously they aren't going to release the raw data. We wouldn't understand it if they did.

You say something is likely, but without evidence.
We're to take the word of agenda driven government
agencies, who are neither certain nor in agreement.
And even if it turns our that Evil Ivan did it, how is it actionable info?
No one has proposed any reasonable change in course.
So we have an unevidenced conspiracy theory which has no value even if proven.
The only reasonable explanation is a post-loss tantrum.

We can bump up security. But the bigger issue is one of foreign relations. Trump wants to cozy up to Russia. So the fact that they are hacking party computers and may be trying to impact elections is certainly relevant to his position. Should we really be getting in bed with these people? It's a legitimate question and one that so far I don't hear a lot of people talking about in a substantive way.

 

[Parchment]

Well if you are going to dismiss the experts who have said they've seen it, then we are done. Obviously they aren't going to release the raw data. We wouldn't understand it if they did.

We can bump up security. But the bigger issue is one of foreign relations. Trump wants to cozy up to Russia. So the fact that they are hacking party computers and may be trying to impact elections is certainly relevant to his position. Should we really be getting in bed with these people? It's a legitimate question and one that so far I don't hear a lot of people talking about in a substantive way.

Do you consider William Binney an expert? Do you consider the F.B.I. experts?

 

[Revoltingest]

Well if you are going to dismiss the experts who have said they've seen it, then we are done. Obviously they aren't going to release the raw data. We wouldn't understand it if they did.

I haven't dismissed what they've said it all.
I believe that it is indeed possible that the Ruskies did as claimed.
But even all experts cited admit uncertainty.
And I do not trust them.
Remember....they work for Obama, who strongly supported Hilda against the much despised Donald.

We can bump up security.

Shouldn't we anyway, regardless of who did what?

But the bigger issue is one of foreign relations. Trump wants to cozy up to Russia. So the fact that they are hacking party computers and may be trying to impact elections is certainly relevant to his position. Should we really be getting in bed with these people? It's a legitimate question and one that so far I don't hear a lot of people talking about in a substantive way.

What do you think he should do differently (as prez) if the Russian hacking conspiracy theory is proven?

 

[metis]

It's one of the few times you will find me disagreeing with metis. There are many instances of Republicans starving the beast, and charter schools are a dangerous game, but nobody goes after education spending if they want to get re-elected.

But it's really done in much more subtle ways. For example, we are the only industrialized country that spends less on educating the children in lower-income families than middle or upper-income families, and which of those three groups has a higher proportion of kids in public schools?

What I was not referring to was the financing of schools at the local level though local taxes but at the state level through state taxes that go to the districts. It's at this level whereas you can see the difference, which is why like here in Michigan the state Republicans have siphoned money from public schools to finance charter schools. If anyone thinks I'm exaggerating or lying, then let me recommend they check out what the state has done (or rather hadn't done) in Detroit since they took it over. or check out Flint.

And while our glorious Republican governor (Snyder) gave his business buddies a $1.7 billion tax break (later reduced), he and the Republican-controlled legislators have fallen behind in their support of public education to the point whereas what used to be fiscally-solvent districts have had to make serious cuts to the point whereas schools physically are deteriorating, plus we are losing teachers going to other states because the educational future here looks so dismal.

A fellow I used to work with who now lives down in South Carolina says that it's even worse down there. Throughout most of the country we are not properly funding education, and the Republican-led states generally are worse off, according to a great many studies.

 

[Revoltingest]

But it's really done in much more subtle ways. For example, we are the only industrialized country that spends less on educating the children in lower-income families than middle or upper-income families, and which of those three groups has a higher proportion of kids in public schools?

What I was not referring to was the financing of schools at the local level though local taxes but at the state level through state taxes that go to the districts. It's at this level whereas you can see the difference, which is why like here in Michigan the state Republicans have siphoned money from public schools to finance charter schools. If anyone thinks I'm exaggerating or lying, then let me recommend they check out what the state has done (or rather hadn't done) in Detroit since they took it over. or check out Flint.

And while our glorious Republican governor (Snyder) gave his business buddies a $1.7 billion tax break (later reduced), he and the Republican-controlled legislators have fallen behind in their support of public education to the point whereas what used to be fiscally-solvent districts have had to make serious cuts to the point whereas schools physically are deteriorating, plus we are losing teachers going to other states because the educational future here looks so dismal.

A fellow I used to work with who now lives down in South Carolina says that it's even worse down there. Throughout most of the country we are not properly funding education, and the Republican-led states generally are worse off, according to a great many studies.

Your claims are complicated by education funding increases....
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/319/files/2015/06/Ackbar-its-a-trap.gif
Moreover, the state & counties have been illegally increasing property taxes (violating
the Headlee Amendment), which are a major source of school funding.
You might explain to the folks why the state took over Detroit schools.
(Hint: Decades of Democratic corruption & incompetence.)

 

[metis]

BTW, just for the record, I no longer read nor respond to Revoltingest's posts as we're too much like oil & water. If anyone else wants to see how I'd respond to anything he might bring up, they'd have to ask me directly.

 

[Revoltingest]

BTW, just for the record, I no longer read nor respond to Revoltingest's posts as we're too much like oil & water. If anyone else wants to see how I'd respond to anything he might bring up, they'd have to ask me directly.

But you always come back to me.
I'm simply irresistible.
The Robert Palmer gals agree......

 

[Scuba Pete]

An interesting read: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/world/europe/russia-trump-election-cia-fbi.html?_r=0

 

[Underhill]

Failure to understand is the 2nd step.
The 1st is to present the evidence.
You haven't yet done that.

You're stating that evidence exists.
This is not presenting it.

You say something is likely, but without evidence.
We're to take the word of agenda driven government agencies, who
are neither certain nor in agreement about their secret evidence.
And even if it turns our that Evil Ivan did it, how is it actionable info?
No one has proposed any reasonable change in course.
So we have an unevidenced conspiracy theory which has no value even if proven.
The only reasonable explanation is a post-loss tantrum.

So you think the CIA, FBI and multiple private security firms who all agree that, at the very least, Russia is hacking these places (the only thing I've seen any debate on is what their motives were) are just lying about the evidence?

I'm sorry but if there is a conspiracy claim here, it sounds like it is coming from you. They all have decided that it's worth putting careers and reputations on the line for an administration that is soon to be vacant. Sorry but that makes no sense.

 

[Underhill]

But it's really done in much more subtle ways. For example, we are the only industrialized country that spends less on educating the children in lower-income families than middle or upper-income families, and which of those three groups has a higher proportion of kids in public schools?

What I was not referring to was the financing of schools at the local level though local taxes but at the state level through state taxes that go to the districts. It's at this level whereas you can see the difference, which is why like here in Michigan the state Republicans have siphoned money from public schools to finance charter schools. If anyone thinks I'm exaggerating or lying, then let me recommend they check out what the state has done (or rather hadn't done) in Detroit since they took it over. or check out Flint.

And while our glorious Republican governor (Snyder) gave his business buddies a $1.7 billion tax break (later reduced), he and the Republican-controlled legislators have fallen behind in their support of public education to the point whereas what used to be fiscally-solvent districts have had to make serious cuts to the point whereas schools physically are deteriorating, plus we are losing teachers going to other states because the educational future here looks so dismal.

A fellow I used to work with who now lives down in South Carolina says that it's even worse down there. Throughout most of the country we are not properly funding education, and the Republican-led states generally are worse off, according to a great many studies.

I don't know much about that as I live in rural NYS where the republicans are thick as thieves, complain constantly about the taxes foisted on them by the city folk but enjoy some pretty decent schools (and roads) compared to our neighbors just over the border in PA.

I have heard about charter schools fairly extensively through reading and npr, but beyond that I would have to say I am fairly clueless.

But I know here in NY what I said is true. We dump mountains of cash on the schools, much of it on sports programs (a separate rant) but more than enough on general education. But in poor districts where the parents aren't educated, the scores still lag behind the rest of the region.

 

[Underhill]

I haven't dismissed what they've said it all.
I believe that it is indeed possible that the Ruskies did as claimed.
But even all experts cited admit uncertainty.
And I do not trust them.
Remember....they work for Obama, who strongly supported Hilda against the much despised Donald.

Shouldn't we anyway, regardless of who did what?

What do you think he should do differently (as prez) if the Russian hacking conspiracy theory is proven?

I doubt he will change anything of his own accord. But the public getting worked up about this stuff should impact how he deals with Russia. It probably won't, but at the very least the public is likely to get another dose of his true colors shining through.

 

[Underhill]

Do you consider William Binney an expert?

Depends on what you are talking about. On cyber attacks, probably not. More knowledgeable than the average joe on the street certainly but not on the same level as the cyber security guys who do this stuff for a living.

Do you consider the F.B.I. experts?

The FBI certainly has its share of experts.

 

[metis]

I don't know much about that as I live in rural NYS where the republicans are thick as thieves, complain constantly about the taxes foisted on them by the city folk but enjoy some pretty decent schools (and roads) compared to our neighbors just over the border in PA.

I have heard about charter schools fairly extensively through reading and npr, but beyond that I would have to say I am fairly clueless.

But I know here in NY what I said is true. We dump mountains of cash on the schools, much of it on sports programs (a separate rant) but more than enough on general education. But in poor districts where the parents aren't educated, the scores still lag behind the rest of the region.

Thanks for the response, and the latter point is very important because, if we take out the bottom 20% of test scores from low-income families across the board (all the countries being compared), the U.S. actually does quite well vis-a-vis the rest of the industrialized countries.

Where my wife and I live for about 2/3 of the year near Detroit, whereas we have lived in the same district for 43 years, we started out white-collar and are now heavily blue-collar, plus there's a substantial number of kids coming in from Detroit because we have "schools of choice" here in Michigan, and our overall test scores have dropped very significantly.

 

[habiru]

And exactly what does that have to do with what we're discussing? Never mind.

I'm trying to say is that we cannot trust any of these government agencies or politicians. Other countries and American citizens were accusing our own government of smuggling in drugs into our country. And so basically, why should we hand over our rights to them, since they doesn't has clean hands as well. I cannot figure out why Chelsea Manning is locked up for unveiling the deceitfulness that is going on in our government. And why is Eric Snowden an NSA agent has gotten himself into trouble for releasing information about the corruption that is going on as well. They are trying to keep those silent that are blowing the whistle on them. Whistle blowers are supposedly be protected under our laws. That it were to give the people the freedom to report criminal acts, and safety issues. But no one has got on the subject of these release information, but they are most focusing on those that has gotten the information. They are trying to scare anyone else who decides on blowing the whistle on them, by making it seem as a criminal offense, and which it is not. Now since we has someone (President Trump) that will make sure that whistle blowers are protected under the law.. In some countries, that many women that has been rape are scared to report it because the countries that they live in doesn't like a snitch. But we are going to prove those that this country is going to treat anyone that tries to do harm to others, that they will be convicted. So that nobody will not have to live in fear.
I'm glad ever since the internet, that a lot of people are following politics.

 

[Notanumber]

Do you think he did the unthinkable and voted for Trump?

 

[Revoltingest]

So you think the CIA, FBI and multiple private security firms who all agree that, at the very least, Russia is hacking these places (the only thing I've seen any debate on is what their motives were) are just lying about the evidence?

You're again attributing more certainty to them than even they claim.

I'm sorry but if there is a conspiracy claim here, it sounds like it is coming from you. They all have decided that it's worth putting careers and reputations on the line for an administration that is soon to be vacant. Sorry but that makes no sense.

Their lack of certainty means that whatever evidence they have can be read a number of ways.
It doesn't require a conspiracy for a top down directive to guide them towards a particular interpretation. We saw this in the Iraqi WMD question.
Nice try to pin the conspiracy theorist tag on me though.
But I'm just not ready to jump into the deep end of belief.

 

[Revoltingest]

I doubt he will change anything of his own accord. But the public getting worked up about this stuff should impact how he deals with Russia. It probably won't, but at the very least the public is likely to get another dose of his true colors shining through.

In other words....
Establishing that Russians hacked Democrats will have only political & PR effects.
I just can't get worked up about something with no material consequences.
This is especially so, given that governments are routinely hacking each other,
including Americastan.