How I Feel About Atheists

[Willamena]

There are ideas that do not correspond to anything that exists.

Yes, in the vernacular.

We call them imaginary, fictional, or delusional, but we do not doubt their existence.

If we doubted their existence, we could not deal with them.

 

[Willamena]

Hello.
To distinguish existence from reality, simply realise that there are things that are not real. That there are things that are not real supports the existence of things that are not real.

Nonexistence means not existing.

Things exist.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

I have been on many forums concerning the topic of atheism, creationism, spirituality, God, etc....
I have a genuine conflict with most of the atheistic comments in a general sense.
I have no conflict with their choice to deny the existence of a Creator/Intelligent Designer/God, that is their life , experience and choice to believe in whatever they wish. But I have a problem with those that claim that there can't possibly be a Creator and that those who believe in a Creator are flawed in their thinking. It takes as much faith, arguably more, to believe that we came into existence out of nothing, by mere chance,than to think there is a Creator/Intelligent Designer/God behind our existence. Both are just different world views. No one knows if either is true. Both are a matter of personal faith. The first humans had the same thoughts as we do now. We don't know. We are just here. No one can claim that another individual's belief or world view is not true or is true. It is true for that individual. Just because you don't agree or view their world the same as they do does not prove anything right or wrong for you or them. There is a possibility that we came into existence from nothing, mere chance...and there is the possibility that a God/Intelligent Designer/Creator created all of this. Both are unknowable and every view on this matter becomes one of faith only. I think everyone needs to accept this, at least. It would be a much more productive and evolved existence in human relations to accept this rather than to argue against the unarguable.

 

[ArtieE]

Hello.
To distinguish existence from reality, simply realise that there are things that are not real. That there are things that are not real supports the existence of things that are not real.

Nonexistence means not existing.

Things exist.

Unicorns are not real. They don't physically exist. Imaginary unicorns are not real. What is real is that people can imagine unicorns.

 

[ArtieE]

Yes, in the vernacular.

We call them imaginary, fictional, or delusional, but we do not doubt their existence.

You can imagine unicorns, you can write a book with unicorns in it, you can be deluded and think you see unicorns. But unicorns don't exist in the real world. Only the concept of unicorns exists in the real world.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

As a strong atheist, atheism to me is much more significant than a plain and simple absence of theism

That's fine, but the significance of atheism to you is not the same as its definition.

It is meaningful. It stands for what I believe rather than beliefs slaved to a god-thing.

In my case, atheism doesn't stand for what I believe. In fact, if all you know about me is that I am an atheist, I would suggest that you can't deduce anything I believe at all. You can probably come up with a lot of good and correct educated guesses, such as that I probably need evidence to believe in gods and that I found none, but it would not be necessary for me to be any of those things and also be an atheist. As an atheist, I might believe in leprechauns. Atheism only tells you what I do not believe, not what I do believe.

Somebody suggested that as an atheist, I am obligated to accept the abiogenesis hypothesis as fact, but I disagree. As an agnostic atheist, my belief is that either abiogenesis or divine creation occurred. If there is a creator god, abiogenesis might or might not have occured. That would be up to the creator. If none exists, the hypothesis is probably correct.

I would expect any honest theist versed in reasoning to agree with that. If so, our shared idea doesn't derive from my atheism or her theism, but from pure reason independent of any god belief status.

Philosophically, it stands for firm insistence that a god-thing has no place in the sum of things that make up the world.

To you perhaps, but that claim is not an essential feature of atheism. I make no such claim and say that I am an atheist nonetheless. Do you disagree?

To say that no claim about the existential status of a god is required for atheism is to say that strong atheism is absurd.

No, it's not a comment on strong atheism at all.

I do, however, think that strong atheism is not a defensible position, but I wouldn't call it absurd. Given the fact that we have no measurement, experiment, observation, argument, or algorithm that can rule out the possibility of an unseen god, I don't see on what basis anybody can make a claim stronger than that they see no evidence for a god, have no belief in one, and see no reason why the universe can't be godless. It does not follow that there is no god.

But taking such a leap of faith is not absurd in my opinion, just a logical error.

 

[Polymath257]

Hello.
To distinguish existence from reality, simply realise that there are things that are not real. That there are things that are not real supports the existence of things that are not real.

Nonexistence means not existing.

Things exist.

I disagree. The things that are not real not not exist. Unicorns do not actually exist. The *idea* of a unicorn exists. That idea is a real idea.

I am quite happy with theists if they admit that God has no more reality than unicorns or leprechauns.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To say that no claim about the existential status of a god is required for atheism is to say that strong atheism is absurd.

No, it's to say that a person can be an atheist without necessarily being a strong atheist.

 

[Willamena]

No, it's to say that a person can be an atheist without necessarily being a strong atheist.

And that strong atheism is absurd.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

You can imagine unicorns, you can write a book with unicorns in it, you can be deluded and think you see unicorns. But unicorns don't exist in the real world. Only the concept of unicorns exists in the real world.

You are correct. At least in this universe, of what we can see, unicorns do not exist. They can and do exist in our minds and imagination, and whether they exist in our minds or in the real world is of no consequence, in my opinion. One can gain more truth and value in the imagination than by what actually exists in the real world, and vice versa.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And that strong atheism is absurd.

The same way that saying "you don't need to live in New York to be an American" means "no American would want to live in New York."

... IOW, not at all.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

I disagree. The things that are not real not not exist. Unicorns do not actually exist. The *idea* of a unicorn exists. That idea is a real idea.

I am quite happy with theists if they admit that God has no more reality than unicorns or leprechauns.

How do you know that a God/Creator/Intelligent Designer does not exist in reality ? How can you possibly say that with 100% certainty ?
Do you only believe in what you can see right now with our limited view of the universe and limited knowledge of all that there is ? What if there is an infinity of universes with infinite gods ? What if there is only this universe and there is a Creator who created this universe without us being able to see him physically at this time , because he is the Creator who makes up the rules ? Is the world still flat because that was the belief at one time ? So can you admit or conceive that the "idea" of a God may be a reality ? Or do you honestly believe that you have absolute knowledge of all of existence ? You have to admit in the possibility of a God/Creator/Intelligent Designer. The most brilliant minds, as well as the the most common, surely believe and admit that there is that possibility.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How do you know that a God/Creator/Intelligent Designer does not exist in reality ? How can you possibly say that with 100% certainty ?
Do you only believe in what you can see right now with our limited view of the universe and limited knowledge of all that there is ?

Anything that's beyond human knowledge is not what any human being is referring to when they say "God."

Any god-belief, if it's justified, will be rooted in our limited human knowledge... and if it's not rooted in human knowledge, it's entitled to no more regard than any other made-up nonsense.

I don't know any theist who would be satisfied with "your beliefs are irrational and unjustified, but we can't completely rule out the possibility that your beliefs happen to be coincidentally similar to something out there you had no real idea existed, but stumbled onto it just by dumb, ignorant luck."

... but that's all you leave theists with when you argue that God is beyond human knowledge.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

Anything that's beyond human knowledge is not what any human being is referring to when they say "God."

Any god-belief, if it's justified, will be rooted in our limited human knowledge... and if it's not rooted in human knowledge, it's entitled to no more regard than any other made-up nonsense.

I don't know any theist who would be satisfied with "your beliefs are irrational and unjustified, but we can't completely rule out the possibility that your beliefs happen to be coincidentally similar to something out there you had no real idea existed, but stumbled onto it just by dumb, ignorant luck."

... but that's all you leave theists with when you argue that God is beyond human knowledge.

If there is a possibility that God exists, and it is beyond our human knowledge,that still doesn't nullify the possibility that God may exist. Perhaps God created us to rely on faith to believe in him rather than knowledge. It's a possibility.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

Anything that's beyond human knowledge is not what any human being is referring to when they say "God."

Any god-belief, if it's justified, will be rooted in our limited human knowledge... and if it's not rooted in human knowledge, it's entitled to no more regard than any other made-up nonsense.

I don't know any theist who would be satisfied with "your beliefs are irrational and unjustified, but we can't completely rule out the possibility that your beliefs happen to be coincidentally similar to something out there you had no real idea existed, but stumbled onto it just by dumb, ignorant luck."

... but that's all you leave theists with when you argue that God is beyond human knowledge.

Also, how do you possibly know what everyone is referring to when they are talking about "God?"

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

Also, how do you possibly know what everyone is referring to when they are talking about "God?"

Anything that's beyond human knowledge is not what any human being is referring to when they say "God."

Any god-belief, if it's justified, will be rooted in our limited human knowledge... and if it's not rooted in human knowledge, it's entitled to no more regard than any other made-up nonsense.

I don't know any theist who would be satisfied with "your beliefs are irrational and unjustified, but we can't completely rule out the possibility that your beliefs happen to be coincidentally similar to something out there you had no real idea existed, but stumbled onto it just by dumb, ignorant luck."

... but that's all you leave theists with when you argue that God is beyond human knowledge.

Many people of all walks of life, including the most famous and brilliant scientists believe that the possibility of a Creator/God as well as the scientific origins of life are beyond our human understanding and knowledge, but they are not Theists as you referred to. They are just intelligent enough to concede of the possibility of realities beyond are limited human knowledge capacity.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

Many people of all walks of life, including the most famous and brilliant scientists believe that the possibility of a Creator/God as well as the scientific origins of life are beyond our human understanding and knowledge, but they are not Theists as you referred to. They are just intelligent enough to concede of the possibility of realities beyond are limited human knowledge capacity.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

With all of our knowledge you would think that the world would be a much better place but that is not the case. Knowledge isn't the ultimate solution to all that is. There are other factors at play, also. Humans often use knowledge in destructive manners and even though they possess the knowledge to make things better in the world we don't. So knowledge doesn't answer all of life's perplexities nor does it solve all of our problems. We can have all the knowledge in the world but we aren't intelligent enough to use that knowledge properly in many cases. I just think knowledge can contain a certain amount of subjectivity. I think what people feel in their innate sense of being is just as powerful and insightful to our human experience as what we call " knowing."

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

With all of our knowledge you would think that the world would be a much better place but that is not the case. Knowledge isn't the ultimate solution to all that is. There are other factors at play, also. Humans often use knowledge in destructive manners and even though they possess the knowledge to make things better in the world we don't. So knowledge doesn't answer all of life's perplexities nor does it solve all of our problems. We can have all the knowledge in the world but we aren't intelligent enough to use that knowledge properly in many cases. I just think knowledge can contain a certain amount of subjectivity. I think what people feel in their innate sense of being is just as powerful and insightful to our human experience as what we call " knowing." Many people feel that there is a God/Creator/Intelligent Designer. They may not have direct knowledge of this, but they sincerely feel it to be a strong possibility or even a truth. People will often use the expression, " I can just feel " in many instances in life and I think we shouldn't dismiss this sense of feeling among humans. We don't know everything so life is open to many interpretations and possibilities.

 

[ArtieE]

How do you know that a God/Creator/Intelligent Designer does not exist in reality ? How can you possibly say that with 100% certainty ?
Do you only believe in what you can see right now with our limited view of the universe and limited knowledge of all that there is ? What if there is an infinity of universes with infinite gods ? What if there is only this universe and there is a Creator who created this universe without us being able to see him physically at this time , because he is the Creator who makes up the rules ? Is the world still flat because that was the belief at one time ? So can you admit or conceive that the "idea" of a God may be a reality ? Or do you honestly believe that you have absolute knowledge of all of existence ? You have to admit in the possibility of a God/Creator/Intelligent Designer. The most brilliant minds, as well as the the most common, surely believe and admit that there is that possibility.

For all I know there may be an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of gods in them or no gods at all or anything in between. The possibilities are endless. It's up to humans to use the scientific method to find out the actual truth of the matter. So if theists can come up with a scientific method of detecting gods I would be very interested. There are plenty of gods mentioned in the Bible. The Bible’s Many Gods | Gerald McDermott Now, if theists instead of just going around believing stuff could make themselves useful and invent something that will allow us to get in contact with these gods so we can learn more about the universe(s) and what's in them these theists would eradicate atheism and expand our knowledge of the universe(s) immensely in one fell swoop.