How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

[1137]

Well, I think a lot believe that Jesus is coming back to fulfill the prophecies, Which is consistent since many prophecies have been demonstrated to have a dual fulfillment, that is, fulfilled in part now and completely fulfilled in the future.

Show me where that was part of the prophesy.

As to the perversion of Hebrew texts, How so? I believe all they've done is translate them, And yes a lot has gotten lost in translation but that's not intentional and I certainly wouldn't call it a perversion.

Perversion of the meaning occurred.

Perhaps to a Jew, Christianity may seem blasphemous but then, To a Christian, The Jews are once again rejecting God and following themselves. Either way, We don't have the best opinion of each other but yes, we do have the same God.

How have the Jews followed themselves rather than god? The Jews are the actual chosen people of their God, so I'd say that if they view Christ as blasphemous the most likely have a point. Who better to understand god than the few he personally explained himself to?

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus the deity manifests as Jesus the man. In man form, he 'prays' to the father and such, but also says he is in God, and God in Him, so forth and so on. This is because the 'father', JHVH, manifested via the Spirit into Jesus. Therefore Jesus isn't 'another' deity or god, He is simply the manifestation of God in human form, hence the 'son', of God, yet God. To worship the son is to worship the father.

 

[Thana]

Show me where that was part of the prophesy.

Show me where it isn't.

Perversion of the meaning occurred.

Yeah.. They translated some things wrong. That doesn't make it a perversion.

How have the Jews followed themselves rather than god? The Jews are the actual chosen people of their God, so I'd say that if they view Christ as blasphemous the most likely have a point. Who better to understand god than the few he personally explained himself to?

You should already know the fundamental differences between Judaism and Christianity, I don't know why you're expecting me to tell you them.

And yes, The Jews are His chosen people. But then, They deny Christ as they've denied so many things given to them by God. If you've read the Tanakh you'd see all the things they've done to displease God to the point where He grafted in the Gentiles because of the Jews constant rejections. So I wouldn't regard them as having any better insight than Christians.

Putting them on a pedastal is a mistake. They're no better or worse than we are, No more loved than we are.

 

[George-ananda]

And that'd great, but the two deities are inherently different. This "evolution" would be the equivalent of humans suddenly coming out as gigantic, mothlike creatures.

I disagree that they are inherently different. Both religions envision a single Omni-everything deity that wants moral behavior from men. And Jesus clearly links to the God of Judaism. So Judaism and Christianity believe in the same one God.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

The greatest example of this is the conception of Satan between Judaism and Christianity. In Christianity, Satan is essentially The Devil - that is to say the two words mean the same thing. There is no Devil in Judaism, and "Satan" is a title (meaning "adversary") deignating and angel, who in fulfilling orders from God himself, sent to test man's faith.

I used to kind of think that too, but then it occurred to me that orders may be being filled by satan in the Christian faith as well. Nowhere does it state, I believe, that the God of the OT or NT doesn't have the greater power over entities demonic or satanic. In revelation I suppose it takes more the form of play acting, the dragon feigns power and war, but is prophesied to be wholly imprisoned underground or wherever for its 1000 years. In Job, satan and God then feign civil conversation, as if it mattered to God or he didn't know what his creation was doing "roaming the earth." However, perhaps when it came time to subdue the dragon according to the legends of the apocalypse, it was shown that the two had fundamental differences in perspectives.

 

[Faybull]

How can it be the 'same' god when our god manifests in human form, ie Jesus? Judaism says that isn't possible, not to mention the other differences. Clearly not the 'same' deity.

"Judaism" says that, or the Torah says that? I am curious as to where either says that isn't possible.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I'm literally just straight curious. Not only is this a belief, it's a common one despite the two deities being inherently contradictory in nature and Jesus fulfilling little to NONE of the messianic prophesy. Not to mention the whole idea of Christ contradicts Judaism, and Christianity has blatantly perverted the Hebrew texts. If the deities are suppose to be the same, as Christianity seems to believe, as in they worship the Hebrew god, isn't the religion absolute pure blasphemy?

You know, I think you might have to frame it in even greater or more specific context at this point. Case and point, don't look at "the texts," or the supposed fulfillment thereof, or the contradictory nature of all the corporeal personalities, or messianic fulfillment or even the idea of blasphemy. Instead, take a good hard look at the documented personality of God. No really, read the ruminations in Isaiah or Jeremiah about wine presses and vineyards of anger, the long winded ravings that scream off the page about cutting off 10 of 12 tribes and leaving them scattered to the wind. Of flooding the earth, and generating plagues, with metaphors of stark war, always coming near or trying hard to hold itself back from promises of further division.

And think of a deity who actually would devise up a counter-being like satan or nephilim or talking snakes in the first place, understand that something may seem abnormal there.

Then maybe you'll understand what might be going on here. This is monotheism, but this is a God who instead of sharing the skies with Zeus and Thor seems to share the skies with different incarnations of himself. That in the personality there was this boundless thing that perhaps tries to hide itself from us in a fog of apophenia, yet, revealed there in the word, a Being whose mind is scarcely not on edge of being contained. Yes, God set 3 religions (or more) against each other. It is because the mind of God, which does not change, seems not to be fully decided. That is where mankind comes in for God: to help him prove a system apparently, in setting one side against the next, neither side is any longer battling a pagan deity of old (which in the OT God claims to have gave power) but now counter ideologies of God himself?

 

[Desert Snake]

"Judaism" says that, or the Torah says that? I am curious as to where either says that isn't possible.

Judaism.
Man can't observe God, in the first place, in Judaism. Or rather, look at god.

I didn't say the torah says that. I wrote 'judaism'. They are not synonymous terms.

 

[Desert Snake]

"Judaism" says that, or the Torah says that? I am curious as to where either says that isn't possible.

Just ask in the Judaism DIR. That's one of the things that makes Judaism different from Christianity.

 

[dantech]

Just ask in the Judaism DIR. That's one of the things that makes Judaism different from Christianity.

These are the laws we have regarding God:

• To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) (CCA1). See What Do Jews Believe?.

• Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3) (CCN8). See What Do Jews Believe?.

• Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16) (negative).

• To hallow G-d's name (Lev. 22:32) (CCA5). See The Name of G-d.

• Not to profane G-d's name (Lev . 22:32) (CCN155). See The Name of G-d.

• To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4) (CCA2). SeeWhat Do Jews Believe?.

• To love G-d (Deut. 6:5) (CCA3). SeeWhat Do Jews Believe?.

• To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20) (CCA4).

• Not to put the word of G-d to the test (Deut. 6:16) (negative).

• To imitate His good and upright ways (Deut. 28:9) (CCA6)

Also, see the ones from #312 to #357 regarding idolatry.

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

 

[Lyndon]

It does.n

Excuse me, my God. I believe Jesus to be God.

Sorry but it doesn't say that anywhere in your Bible, and only a small few references in the gospels to him being son or offspring of God, which still doesn't make him God any more than being a son makes him his mother or father....

 

[Desert Snake]

It does.n


Sorry but it doesn't say that anywhere in your Bible, and only a couple references in the gospels to him being son or offspring of God, which still doesn't make him God any more than a son makes him his mother.....

Actually it does. Especially in the original greek. You're talking about 'later' Xian ideas, where they most likely were trying to rationalize xianity with 'judaism'. I know the arguments, dude.

 

[Desert Snake]

btw gospels? Ever ask church academics what they think of the validity of the gospels?

Heres a hint/ its pretty common belief, analysis........the 'authors' didn't write them. they are unknown authorship.

 

[Lyndon]

Sorry but it doesn't say Jesus is God; quote the text and verse, especially if you find one in the gospels....

 

[Desert Snake]

Sorry but it doesn't say Jesus is God; quote the text and verse, in the gospels....

Why just the gospels?

 

[Kolibri]

Personally I understand God has not changed. (Mal 3:6) He is the same one he revealed himself as in the Torah. But then Jehovah's Witnesses are not Trinitatarians, nor do we promote Jesus as an alternate name for Jehovah. "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." - De 6:4

The biggest difference I am aware of between Jehovah's Witnesses and the Jew's concept of God today, If I am not mistaken, is how we treat the divine name.

 

[Lyndon]

Why just the gospels?

read my post it was edited. But I personally don't accept Paul's writings as inspired or prophetic or any less flawed than any other Christian minister that started out his life as a mass murderer killing Christians.

 

[roger1440]

I'm literally just straight curious. Not only is this a belief, it's a common one despite the two deities being inherently contradictory in nature and Jesus fulfilling little to NONE of the messianic prophesy. Not to mention the whole idea of Christ contradicts Judaism, and Christianity has blatantly perverted the Hebrew texts. If the deities are suppose to be the same, as Christianity seems to believe, as in they worship the Hebrew god, isn't the religion absolute pure blasphemy?

Are you asking a question or giving an answer?

 

[Lyndon]

You still haven't provided any scriptural evidence that Jesus IS God, as opposed to coming from God, there are a couple of references to Jesus being the or a son of God, but there is also a passage where he says we are all sons and daughters of God, I believe. None of the old testament prophecies say anything about the Messiah being God, your whole misconception of Jesus starts with the writings of Paul, its like who are you going to believe, The admitted mass murderer Paul(NOT God) or Jesus' own words where he calls himself almost exclusively the son of man. Most Christians actually believe Paul's words supercede Jesus', apostasy that is.

 

[gsa]

Because even Trinitarians don't really understand the mechanics of the Trinity, So I doubt the Jews understand it any better, let alone be able to deny it's possibility.
Besides, not all Christians are Trinitarians anyway.

Jesus was human. He is not human anymore.

In orthodox Christianity Jesus remains fully human and fully divine. He did not stop being fully human. Folk Christianity is more Gnostic and assumes he cannot be both, but that's not the official line.