How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

[jeager106]

I'm literally just straight curious. Not only is this a belief, it's a common one despite the two deities being inherently contradictory in nature and Jesus fulfilling little to NONE of the messianic prophesy. Not to mention the whole idea of Christ contradicts Judaism, and Christianity has blatantly perverted the Hebrew texts. If the deities are suppose to be the same, as Christianity seems to believe, as in they worship the Hebrew god, isn't the religion absolute pure blasphemy?

Your original post contains some rather harsh ascertions seeming to be somewhat of an emotional codemnation of Christianity.
I don't believe I would call anyones religion "absolute, pure, blasphemy" out of ordinary politness.
Note I'm not slinging insults at you like "puting your foot in your mouth".
Curteous responses should be responded to with the same politness please.
About the trinity. Not all Christian denominations accept the trinity as doctrine.
For instance these: Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, Living Church of God,Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God, International and the United Church of God.
Perhaps there are more.
Islam has no notion of anything like a triune god but they aren't Crhistian either, the of course the Jewish religion has no doctrine like the trinity.
The first council of Nicea in about 325 A.D. accepted the full divinity of the Son, followed by the first council of Constantinople in about 381 A.D. which declared divinity of the Holy Spirit.
Even in those ancient times there was argument among the church authorities about what would be accepted dogma.
The trinity isn't even Biblical, it's a creed, a pronouncment of agreement.
I've done much reading about the trinity and frankly, to me it just doesn't make sense.
The notion of a place where God sends bad people to be tortured for all enternity never made sense to me. I read a good deal about the "hell" mentioned in the Bible and conclude that hell isn't what many Christians believe it to be.
One reason I don't accept chruch ascertions of something w/o looking it for myself.
I'm going to accept to a certain extent that what you say about the contadictions between Christianty and Judiasm is true. To an extent.
The "god" of the Jews is NOT the same "god" of general Christianity given the accepted belief in the trinity by most Christians.
You score a point. I thank you for that as it made it clear to me that there is indeed a difference between to 2 gods.
I must accept the Jewish god as I don't accept the triune god.
Wonder how many Christians I just ticked off??????
Well that's what I get for having an inquisitive nature, for a desire to bring out the truth as best I know how.
Perhaps that is what made me a good detective in my former life and why I had so many enemies. Digging up the truth exposed corruption and I was hated for that.
Even my good friend, the Chief of Police got Federally indicted because of things I uncovered. A reason I don't live anywhere near where I once worked.
But I digress. Good points are being made here I think.

 

[Thana]

In orthodox Christianity Jesus remains fully human and fully divine. He did not stop being fully human. Folk Christianity is more Gnostic and assumes he cannot be both, but that's not the official line.

That doesn't make sense to me, not at all.
But the bible doesn't go into specifics about the nature of Jesus after He left, So Orthodox or not, There's no real evidence for or against. It's just speculation.

 

[fschmidt]

Is a burger with mustard and without mustard the same burger? Some people just get hung up on details. The question that matters is where is the beef? The beef of God is in the Old Testament. Those Christians who accept the Old Testament are worshipping the same God. Those Christians with replacement theology, rejecting the Old Testament, are not worshipping the same God. They are worshipping an empty sandwich filled with just mustard.

 

[Lyndon]

I wouldn't say its correct to think of Islam as a non Christian religion, while Judaism today probably is. If you define Christian as a follower of Jesus' teachings, then Islam is definitely a Christian religion, at least 1/3 of the Holy Koran is devoted to the story and teachings of Jesus(Issa in arabic) If you define Christian as someone who believes Jesus is God, only then could you classify Islam as non Christian.

 

[Thana]

I wouldn't say its correct to think of Islam as a non Christian religion, while Judaism today probably is. If you define Christian as a follower of Jesus' teachings, then Islam is definitely a Christian religion, at least 1/3 of the Holy Koran is devoted to the story and teachings of Jesus(Issa in arabic) If you define Christian as someone who believes Jesus is God, only then could you classify Islam as non Christian.

Even Christians who deny the divinity of Jesus do not deny that Jesus died on the cross and that He was the son of God.
Muslims do.

They deny most of the bible, in fact, as either corrupted or lies, Tanakh and NT alike. No I wouldn't call them even close to a Christian religion. They're there own religion and for good reason.

 

[gsa]

That doesn't make sense to me, not at all.
But the bible doesn't go into specifics about the nature of Jesus after He left, So Orthodox or not, There's no real evidence for or against. It's just speculation.

Ok. I agree it is an absurd doctrine, but probably for different reasons. The problem here is assuming Christian scriptures answer the question, when it is Christian tradition that forms the basis for creeds, like the Trinity and incarnation. There's no evidence for any of it, if you dismiss tradition.

 

[Lyndon]

Even Christians who deny the divinity of Jesus do not deny that Jesus died on the cross and that He was the son of God.
Muslims do.

They deny most of the bible, in fact, as either corrupted or lies, Tanakh and NT alike. No I wouldn't call them even close to a Christian religion. They're there own religion and for good reason.

WRONG WRONG WRONG on so many counts, the Koran is mostly a collection of Jewish and Christian stories and teachings, with only some smaller percentage of teachings actually added by Mohammed, and the Muslims accept teachings from a huge portion of your Old Testament. 90+% of the accepted Islamic Prophets, of which Mohammed was considered one of the lesser, are leaders in the Old testament and of the Jewish religion, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, Daniel etc etc

And yes their were plenty of early (and modern) Christians that denied/(deny) Jesus was divine, roughly 50% in the first few centuries AD, until YOUR Early Christian church under emperor Constantine started slaughtering them and burning all their scriptures, many of which told that Jesus didn't die on the cross, but someone took his place to save him, try reading the gospel of the Apostle Barnabas.

Religious intolerance and conservatism can be a horribly ugly thing and no one has to believe Jesus is God, or Jesus is the son of God, to follow his teachings and be truly considered a Christian.

 

[Glaurung]

Jesus was human. He is not human anymore.

Jesus is still fully human and fully God. This is pretty much universally accepted as dogma by the immense majority. Denial of Christ's humanity has been officially heretical for a very long time.

Of course, you can make up your own doctrines all you like, but you can't just brush of well established Christian doctrine and pronounce it as 'only speculation' because you feel it doesn't make sense.

 

[Lyndon]

Just should point out, I am not a conventional Christian, a Muslim, or Jewish, though in periods in my life I have practised and extensively studied all three. I don't really see any one of these three religions as superior to the others, but I especially hate it when people have to spread lies about another religion, just so that they can feel more smug about their own religion. And right now western people are being conned into the delusion that Islamic religion is so bad and evil that we have to go to war with it and end up killing half the people on earth, all because of lies and intolerance, and this I will fight against every time it rears its ugly head.

 

[Thana]

Jesus is still fully human and fully God. This is pretty much universally accepted as dogma by the immense majority. Denial of Christ's humanity has been officially heretical for a very long time.

Of course, you can make up your own doctrines all you like, but you can't just brush of well established Christian doctrine and pronounce it as 'only speculation' because you feel it doesn't make sense.

There is no scriptual teaching that Jesus is still a human or isn't a human, So your beliefs are speculation, Just as mine are on this matter.

And yes, I am assuming and I make no qualms about it, and I prefer that to being indoctrinated

And I don't deny His humanity, I just deny that He still has it.
Someone on these forums once posed this question to me that I'll now pose to you, Who decides what is heretical?

 

[Glaurung]

There is no scriptual teaching that Jesus is still a human or isn't a human, So your beliefs are speculation, Just as mine are on this matter.

They are not 'my' beliefs, they are the doctrines of the Church established by the various ecumenical councils. The particular one of interest here is the Council of Chalcedon, wherein the full humanity of Christ was established as dogma.

One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He were parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us, and as the Symbol of the Fathers hath handed down to us.

And I don't deny His humanity, I just deny that He still has it.

And you are a heretic for doing so.

Someone on these forums once posed this question to me that I'll now pose to you, Who decides what is heretical?

The same people who decided the cannon of scripture which you claim to accept no? The Church. You claim to accept the authority of Scripture, but reject the authority of the Church that compiled and canonized it in the first place? How does that make any sense?

 

[Lyndon]

The authority of a church that molests children and then protects the abusers!!

 

[Thana]

They are not 'my' beliefs, they are the doctrines of the Church established by the various ecumenical councils. The particular one of interest here is the Council of Chalcedon, wherein the full humanity of Christ was established as dogma.

And you are a heretic for doing so.

The same people who decided the cannon of scripture which you claim to accept no? The Church. You claim to accept the authority of Scripture, but reject the authority of the Church that compiled and canonized it in the first place? How does that make any sense?

Ah, Forgive me. I didn't realize I was talking with a Catholic.

You're exactly right, They're not your beliefs but beliefs of random people you've never even met who are dictating to you what is and isn't Godly. I don't understand how you can trust fallible humans on divine matters but... I digress.

Protestants have different bibles to Catholics, So I'm unsure as to how it was put together. You can look it up if you like.

 

[Kolibri]

And I don't deny His humanity, I just deny that He still has it.

And you are a heretic for doing so.

I'm a heretic!!!
Just because I'm labeled does not make the teaching I reflect wrong.

"A slave is not greater than his master." - John 15:20

 

[Lyndon]

Ah, Forgive me. I didn't realize I was talking with a Catholic.

You're exactly right, They're not your beliefs but beliefs of random people you've never even met who are dictating to you what is and isn't Godly. I don't understand how you can trust fallible humans on divine matters but... I digress.

Protestants have different bibles to Catholics, So I'm unsure as to how it was put together. You can look it up if you like.

Wrong, there's only one Bible, written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek and many different translations, and a few "apocryphal", not particularly important books included in the Catholic translations, that are not included in the KJV but readily available to read in many different translations.

The difference between the Catholic translation and the King James version are no more significant or important, than the difference between the KJV and the NIV or the RSV. The good news bible, a Protestant translation, is the least accurate of all of them

 

[dantech]

In orthodox Christianity Jesus remains fully human and fully divine. He did not stop being fully human. Folk Christianity is more Gnostic and assumes he cannot be both, but that's not the official line.

How can you be two contradictory things, each fully?

 

[Flankerl]

So I doubt the Jews understand it any better, let alone be able to deny it's possibility.

Well let's thank God for doing it for us.

Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 33
20. And He said, "You will not be able to see My face, for man shall not see Me and live."

"Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." - De 6:4

Seriously that's how JWs translate this part of the Shema?

Hilarious.

The biggest difference I am aware of between Jehovah's Witnesses and the Jew's concept of God today, If I am not mistaken, is how we treat the divine name.

No wait that's even more hilarious.

 

[Kolibri]

No wait that's even more hilarious.

This does not help me understand any better. Not that you are required, but I was merely stating to the best of my understanding. And regarding Ex 6:4 it is a partial quote.

 

[Flankerl]

Don't worry it's completely normal for a Christian not to understand that Christianity and Judaism differ on more things than just who this Jesus fellow was or how one treats(bastardised) the Tetragrammaton.

It's really completely normal.

 

[Thana]

Well let's thank God for doing it for us.

Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 33
20. And He said, "You will not be able to see My face, for man shall not see Me and live."

And you're trying to say that by God manifesting in human form, that would be man seeing His face?
Yeah.. no.