How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

[Thana]

Oh boy...

1. World peace. You are right that Jesus never claimed to bring peace (a sword, maybe). Yet the Messiah, in traditional Judaism, will in fact bring global peace. Ergo, Jesus is not the Messiah.

Even Christians believe in a world peace to come, Though it won't last.
What I meant was, World peace won't be permanent and won't be brought about in the World to come because the world to come is not this world.

2. Judaism is theologically diverse, but that diversity tends to end with hard polytheism. Whether you want to admit it or not, the Trinity, a foundational belief of Christian orthodoxy, posits three co-eternal but separate persons, all existing within one godhead. There are humanistic and nontheistic versions of Judaism but those are outliers and they still deny anything like the Trinity. And the reason that almost all Jews and Muslims reject the Trinity (and therefore Christian orthodoxy) is because they see it is virtually indistinguishable from hard polytheism.

It's ironic though, Jews and Muslims, like Christians, Believe in an omnipotent omniscient God but cannot imagine God being a Trinity or having a son or manifesting in flesh.

And as much as they try and say that Trinitarianism is Polytheism, It will never be true because it is not. One God, It's that simple.
I'm so tired of arguing this, Honestly I feel like an Atheist arguing with a YEC. Christianity/Trinitarianism is monotheism no matter how much you don't like it. You cannot change facts just because you think you're smarter than people who dedicate their lives to researching and deciding these things.

 

[Glaurung]

You're exactly right, They're not your beliefs but beliefs of random people you've never even met who are dictating to you what is and isn't Godly. I don't understand how you can trust fallible humans on divine matters but... I digress

Well what is the basis Christianity but relying on the written testimony of people whom you have never met telling you what is godly? I don't know how you can trust fallible humans on divine matters but I digress.

I don't know how you can even trust the authority of random people who decided what was even Scripture in the first place, I mean they are fallible humans after all but I digress.

Protestants have different bibles to Catholics, So I'm unsure as to how it was put together. You can look it up if you like.

No they don't. Protestants have the same Bible as Catholics. The Protestant schism would later reject what they call the 'apocryphal books' but the accepted books are still the same.

 

[Glaurung]

I'm a heretic!!!
Just because I'm labeled does not make the teaching I reflect wrong.

"A slave is not greater than his master." - John 15:20

As a Catholic it should come to no surprise that I do consider your denomination heretical. Technically speaking, only those churches which can trace Apostolic Succession to the Apostles are even churches in the truest sense.

That's not to say Protestants and their offshoots aren't sincere Christians, sometimes sadly, even moreso that Catholic and Orthodox Christians. But they are schismatic and heretical nonetheless.

 

[gsa]

And as much as they try and say that Trinitarianism is Polytheism, It will never be true because it is not. One God, It's that simple.
I'm so tired of arguing this, Honestly I feel like an Atheist arguing with a YEC. Christianity/Trinitarianism is monotheism no matter how much you don't like it. You cannot change facts just because you think you're smarter than people who dedicate their lives to researching and deciding these things.

No matter how much you try to argue that 1+1+1=1, that will not make it so. There are three separate persons of the Trinity; critics of the Trinity often understand it better than Trinitarians, who often lapse into modalism when describing it.

 

[Thana]

No matter how much you try to argue that 1+1+1=1, that will not make it so. There are three separate persons of the Trinity; critics of the Trinity often understand it better than Trinitarians, who often lapse into modalism when describing it.

Again, Just because you think you're smarter than the people who dedicate their lives and research to determine these things doesn't mean you are.
Christianity is Monotheism and your little math equation is about as relevant as an orange is to this debate. God is one, Not 1+1+1 He is just one.

 

[gsa]

Again, Just because you think you're smarter than the people who dedicate their lives and research to determine these things doesn't mean you are.
Christianity is Monotheism and your little math equation is about as relevant as an orange is to this debate. God is one, Not 1+1+1 He is just one.

Anyone who doesn't dedicate their lives to such trivial pursuits already has a decided edge on those who do...

 

[Thana]

Anyone who doesn't dedicate their lives to such trivial pursuits already has a decided edge on those who do...

Ah, Your true colours. Thanks for showing them.

Such arrogance. I've never understood where people get the audacity, Are they born with it or is it something learned? Oh well, I suppose it doesn't matter.

 

[gsa]

Ah, Your true colours. Thanks for showing them.

Such arrogance. I've never understood where people get the audacity, Are they born with it or is it something learned? Oh well, I suppose it doesn't matter.

No my dear. True arrogance is presupposing that believing known falsehoods and anti-logic is a virtue that will be embraced by sober minded bystanders. You want to believe that the Trinity is monotheism, fine; you want to believe that the scriptures are inerrant, also fine. You want to claim that these beliefs are worthy of credence outside your religious circles? That's another matter.

Christian apologists are arrogant beyond belief. The only reason that rational people should acknowledge them is for the benefit of the bystander, which is the only reason I bother with this nonsense. The tainted minds of evangelicals cannot be redeemed; I am only interested in those who have not been poisoned.

 

[Thana]

No my dear. True arrogance is presupposing that believing known falsehoods and anti-logic is a virtue that will be embraced by sober minded bystanders. You want to believe that the Trinity is monotheism, fine; you want to believe that the scriptures are inerrant, also fine. You want to claim that these beliefs are worthy of credence outside your religious circles? That's another matter.

Christian apologists are arrogant beyond belief. The only reason that rational people should acknowledge them is for the benefit of the bystander, which is the only reason I bother with this nonsense. The tainted minds of evangelicals cannot be redeemed; I am only interested in those who have not been poisoned.

Generalisations. People who make them constantly are people who don't have a good perspective, And personally I'm all about perspective.

Christianity is a monotheistic religion, Just as Judaism is a monotheistic religion. There is no changing this just because you disagree or dislike the notion. It is fact, And I am not here to debate facts. It's nonsensical and a waste of time. But thanks anyway.

 

[gsa]

Generalisations. People who make them constantly are people who don't have a good perspective, And personally I'm all about perspective.

.

Would you say this holds true...in general?

 

[Thana]

Would you say this holds true...in general?

Nope. I was just trying to find a nice way to say that I don't think you have a good perspective

 

[gsa]

Nope. I was just trying to find a nice way to say that I don't think you have a good perspective

Good or not, it at least has the distinction of being true. And I will settle for truths over lies, however pleasant and comforting the latter may be.

 

[Flankerl]

Well it makes no sense to me that God wouldn't give His people their Messiah for something like 2000 years or more.

So how is the imminent return of your Messiah turning out for ya?

What it's been +1900 years? Your God seems like a weird fellow.

 

[1137]

Ah, Your true colours. Thanks for showing them.

Such arrogance. I've never understood where people get the audacity, Are they born with it or is it something learned? Oh well, I suppose it doesn't matter.

Maybe you should reread every post you've made in this thread to help research your question.

 

[dantech]

Jesus never claimed to bring world peace, That's a silly idea. The world is corrupt and always will be. He came to bring salvation, To graft in the Gentiles and to show us a way to obtain God's grace without Judaism.

There has always been a way to obtain God's grace without Judaism.... you say he came bring salvation... salvation for what?

Neither does Christianity, I have no expectation that everyone will become Christian. That's nonsensical to bring up as no one has even implied it, Besides you.

I agree it's nonsensical to bring it up. What did you mean when you said that thanks to Jesus, 32% of the population was Christian, as opposed to the 0.2% of Judaism? Surely you didn't say that for no reason at all. You weren't implying anything. Also, isn't it common Christian understanding that by putting your faith in Jesus, you will be saved? Wouldn't that imply that all those who end up saved, have put their faith in Jesus?

Judaism doesn't have it either, You have sects and denominations within your religion aswell.

I didn't say we had it. We're waiting for the messiah to clear it up for us. Yours obviously didn't...

I think you have a very misguided view of Christianity and it's varied beliefs.

I think you're wrong. Just scroll through the "Same Faith Debates" forum, you'll see just how many Christians deny the idea of a trinity...

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Well it makes no sense to me that God wouldn't give His people their Messiah for something like 2000 years or more.

I didn't say we had it. We're waiting for the messiah to clear it up for us. Yours obviously didn't...

Just thought this would be a good time to put in a little plug for atheism. There's no one a-trucking down that road folks. And the sooner we all stop looking down it for someone coming to help us out, the sooner we can help ourselves out. You know, create your own salvation. Clear it up here and now. The atheists abrogate the least personal responsibility, you all must admit this.

 

[dantech]

Just thought this would be a good time to put in a little plug for atheism. There's no one a-trucking down that road folks. And the sooner we all stop looking down it for someone coming to help us out, the sooner we can help ourselves out. You know, create your own salvation. Clear it up here and now. The atheists abrogate the least personal responsibility, you all must admit this.

It is common for most ultra orthodox Jews to await a messiah. But the majority of Jews do not await one. Many don't even believe one will come. Judaism doesn't believe that the messiah can clear our wrongdoings either. We do take responsibility for our actions.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

It is common for most ultra orthodox Jews to await a messiah. But the majority of Jews do not await one. Many don't even believe one will come. Judaism doesn't believe that the messiah can clear our wrongdoings either. We do take responsibility for our actions.

Even so, why delude yourself into thinking there is any other sustaining force other than that of the terrestrial human will? Who gives us certitude, validation, and vindication or whatever else we need? It comes form us. Eliminating God disintegrates the scapegoat in totality.

 

[dantech]

Even so, why delude yourself into thinking there is any other sustaining force other that of the terrestrial human will?

Because it simply doesn't make sense to me that there is no sustaining force other than humanity... That coupled with the years of study I have put into Judaism makes it very likely, for me, that God exists and exercises providence over every being.

Who gives us certitude, validation, and vindication or whatever else we need? It comes form us. Eliminating God disintegrates the scapegoat in totality.

I don't know what you believe I think, but I can assure I don't need a scapegoat for anything.
I don't blame God for any of my shortcomings or bad things that may happen to me. I do ask for help, and say thank you on a daily basis. But I also know that he won't help me unless I help myself. I can pray for help finding a job, but no one is going to call me unless I drop off my resume...

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Because it simply doesn't make sense to me that there is no sustaining force other than humanity... That coupled with the years of study I have put into Judaism makes it very likely, for me, that God exists and exercises providence over every being.

To add a caveat, we could include nature, and that's it.

I don't know what you believe I think, but I can assure I don't need a scapegoat for anything.
I don't blame God for any of my shortcomings or bad things that may happen to me. I do ask for help, and say thank you on a daily basis.

Well your saying help and thank you to this entity surely isn't on par with the regular common courtesy displayed for a restaurant server or other helpful stranger. One can assume that there is a greater vesting of power there that one would put into association, but I assure you there is no rich minister to petition. All the providence there is, we appear to provide, aside from the providence of being hit with a space rock.