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How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
ideogenous_mover said:
Just thought this would be a good time to put in a little plug for atheism. There's no one a-trucking down that road folks. And the sooner we all stop looking down it for someone coming to help us out, the sooner we can help ourselves out. You know, create your own salvation. Clear it up here and now. The atheists abrogate the least personal responsibility, you all must admit this.
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An initiated understanding of gods from the perspective of atheism would be that they are human creations. Obviously the idea exists, the images exist, and so on, there is no denying that. So, either gods actually exist "out there" or we made them up, whether we admit / like that or not. This means that salvation through religion (a human tool created around human creations) is, in fact, humanity creating its own salvation. In short, your position holds no merit outside of anti-religious ignorance.
 
amorphous_constellation

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
1137 said:
An initiated understanding of gods from the perspective of atheism would be that they are human creations. Obviously the idea exists, the images exist, and so on, there is no denying that. So, either gods actually exist "out there" or we made them up, whether we admit / like that or not. This means that salvation through religion (a human tool created around human creations) is, in fact, humanity creating its own salvation. In short, your position holds no merit outside of anti-religious ignorance.
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Sure they are human creations, humankind looks around the world to create archetypal figures out of lightning, merriment, the patriarch etc. etc. However, religion is the human tool and salvation is the human goal. You know, you can't drive on the highway to salvation very well with a rototiller, surely you would prefer a race car. (or perhaps something a little slower so you don't crash) That means you need a good tool to achieve that goal. Now 'salvation' is a very tangible product. You ought to know it when you feel it, it stretches away in sense experience on a scale far opposite from dystopia.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Thana said:
Even Christians believe in a world peace to come, Though it won't last.

And as much as they try and say that Trinitarianism is Polytheism, It will never be true because it is not. One God, It's that simple.
I'm so tired of arguing this, Honestly I feel like an Atheist arguing with a YEC. Christianity/Trinitarianism is monotheism no matter how much you don't like it. You cannot change facts just because you think you're smarter than people who dedicate their lives to researching and deciding these things.
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Actually, one argument against the monotheistic claim of Christianity from Judaism's POV has nothing to do with the trinity, but with the power of a "Satan" to fight with God. The idea that there is a "power of evil/darkness" which could ever challenge God constitutes "****uf" that is, partnership in ascribing certain dominion to a force other than God. This is a polytheistic idea as well.
 
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
ideogenous_mover said:
Sure they are human creations, humankind looks around the world to create archetypal figures out of lightning, merriment, the patriarch etc. etc. However, religion is the human tool and salvation is the human goal. You know, you can't drive on the highway to salvation very well with a rototiller, surely you would prefer a race car. (or perhaps something a little slower so you don't crash) That means you need a good tool to achieve that goal. Now 'salvation' is a very tangible product. You ought to know it when you feel it, it stretches away in sense experience on a scale far opposite from dystopia.
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What I find strange, and notice in a lot of atheists of a certain kind, is that "salvation" is an awfully specific idea that hardly addresses "religion" in general. On top of this, the whole act of making your racecar analogy is nonsensical, I don't even see where you are going with it.
 
amorphous_constellation

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
1137 said:
What I find strange, and notice in a lot of atheists of a certain kind, is that "salvation" is an awfully specific idea that hardly addresses "religion" in general. On top of this, the whole act of making your racecar analogy is nonsensical, I don't even see where you are going with it.
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Where are we going with it? Well, it is to that golden city you see there on the horizon, where malice and want have dissipated. Some of us hope for brighter pastures, and think they do exist.

But stranger yet our highly advanced modern proclivity to don hip waders and venture into myriad soups of etymology. Endless entries are required of me before I can catalyze a single idea.

Salvation is a word that can be extracted. We take it because we think there is real "salvation" that can be effected somehow.
 
dantech

dantech

Well-Known Member
ideogenous_mover said:
Where are we going with it? Well, it is to that golden city you see there on the horizon, where malice and want have dissipated. Some of us hope for brighter pastures, and think they do exist.

But stranger yet our highly advanced modern proclivity to don hip waders and venture into myriad soups of etymology. Endless entries are required of me before I can catalyze a single idea.

Salvation is a word that can be extracted. We take it because we think there is real "salvation" that can be effected somehow.
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I don't know if it's just me and English not being my strongest language, but are you using a thesaurus on every few words?
 
amorphous_constellation

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
dantech said:
I don't know if it's just me and English not being my strongest language, but are you using a thesaurus on every few words?
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1137 said:
The entire post is a thesaurus translation of "I'm not sure what my own point is".
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I use it sometimes, but for that post I didn't. I've had and have cultivated a larger vocabulary for many years, some people do that.

Ironically though, my entire point was to eschew the kind of thesaurus-lever debating that occurs when discussing topics of high gravity. Salvation is just another word. You can "extract" it from religion, that is to say, you can take it out and away from religion. There can be utility in using bigger words, namely, it can shorten the bridge to the point.
 
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
ideogenous_mover said:
I use it sometimes, but for that post I didn't. I've had and have cultivated a larger vocabulary for many years, some people do that.

Ironically though, my entire point was to eschew the kind of thesaurus-lever debating that occurs when discussing topics of high gravity. Salvation is just another word. You can "extract" it from religion, that is to say, you can take it out and away from religion. There can be utility in using bigger words, namely, it can shorten the bridge to the point.
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Extracting it from religion doesn't separate it from religion, though.
 
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
ideogenous_mover said:
Sure it can. You know, according to dictionary.com the word "salvation" doesn't have religion involved in it until the 4rth definition entry down.
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You seem to be talking about it from an obviouslt religious perspective. In fact, what western religion even has a need for salvation outside of Christianity?
 
Thana

Thana

Lady
dantech said:
There has always been a way to obtain God's grace without Judaism.... you say he came bring salvation... salvation for what?
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Mmm, And just how many people ever got it? Very very few.
As to salvation, I think many things but perhaps most importantly salvation from death and flesh.

dantech said:
I agree it's nonsensical to bring it up. What did you mean when you said that thanks to Jesus, 32% of the population was Christian, as opposed to the 0.2% of Judaism? Surely you didn't say that for no reason at all. You weren't implying anything. Also, isn't it common Christian understanding that by putting your faith in Jesus, you will be saved? Wouldn't that imply that all those who end up saved, have put their faith in Jesus?
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I said 32% compared to 0.2% because you implied Jesus was ineffectual, And I wanted to show you otherwise.

Maybe a common understanding, But that doesn't mean we all believe it.

dantech said:
I didn't say we had it. We're waiting for the messiah to clear it up for us. Yours obviously didn't...
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Yes, He did. He came, He preached, He died and resurrected. He did everything He was supposed too, And we're the ones who went off on our own trains of thought and ideologies, It's not the fault of the Messiah.

dantech said:
I think you're wrong. Just scroll through the "Same Faith Debates" forum, you'll see just how many Christians deny the idea of a trinity...
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I know, I may or may not be one of them.
But I'm not commenting on your understanding on Trinitarians or non-Trinitarians I'm talking about Christianity.
 
amorphous_constellation

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
1137 said:
You seem to be talking about it from an obviouslt religious perspective. In fact, what western religion even has a need for salvation outside of Christianity?
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What term would you have me use to underscore what I'm describing? I'm just describing a scenario where you want to keep things from crashing and burning, but not only that, you want a find a place or state of being where things don't crash and burn.
 
Thana

Thana

Lady
Flankerl said:
So how is the imminent return of your Messiah turning out for ya?

What it's been +1900 years? Your God seems like a weird fellow.
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Just fine, Since He isn't expected to come until end times. That's kinda the point, But nice try.
 
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Thana said:
Yes, He did. He came, He preached, He died and resurrected. He did everything He was supposed too, And we're the ones who went off on our own trains of thought and ideologies, It's not the fault of the Messiah.
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  • Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[9]interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
  • Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
  • The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
  • He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
  • There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
  • The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
  • The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
  • He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
It is, at best, laughable to say the prophesies have been ffulfilled.
 
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
ideogenous_mover said:
What term would you have me use to underscore what I'm describing? I'm just describing a scenario where you want to keep things from crashing and burning, but not only that, you want a find a place or state of being where things don't crash and burn.
Click to expand...

You labeled salvation as a single, attainable thing that can only be attained through the "right" methods (I.e. a racecar). I'm simply saying this is still religion.
 
Thana

Thana

Lady
1137 said:
  • Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[9]interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
  • Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
  • The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
  • He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
  • There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
  • The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
  • The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
  • He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
It is, at best, laughable to say the prophesies have been ffulfilled.
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I never said the prophesies were fulfilled, I said He did everything He was supposed to.
You kinda went off on your own there.
 
amorphous_constellation

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
1137 said:
You labeled salvation as a single, attainable thing that can only be attained through the "right" methods (I.e. a racecar). I'm simply saying this is still religion.
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Well, I'm talking about a salvation that supersedes all religious salvation, it's a salvation from all those other kinds of salvation.
 
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
ideogenous_mover said:
Well, I'm talking about a salvation that supersedes all religious salvation, it's a salvation from all those other kinds of salvation.
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Sounds pretty religious to me.

Thana said:
I never said the prophesies were fulfilled, I said He did everything He was supposed to.
You kinda went off on your own there.
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Wow, you're trolling right? What the Messiah is suppose to do is FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHESIES.
 
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