HOW is the healthcare bill unconstitutional? Any explanations?

[Walkntune]

I would realy like to know if Walkintune was being sarcastic, or if he really feels that abolition, woman's suffrage, the New Deal, Social Security, civil rights and seatbelts have led to the downfall of America.

Actually I do think that social security has been a fraudulent ponzi scam and I don't trust the government any more with health care then I do with social security. Just wondering how long it will take to run us into the ground?

 

[Gunfingers]

It is unconstitutional as a state's rights issue, but not in any new way. The clauses used to justify letting the federal government reform healthcare are the same ones used to justify letting the federal government establish a national minimum drinking age and criminalize pot and prostitution. If you take note of anything that seems oddly uniform across all the states, it's probably from the federal government using some loophole to extort the states into uniformity.

And since the guys who are calling the healthcare bill unconstitutional are probably the same ones who will fight tooth and nail to keep pot illegal, i feel kinda justified in calling them hypocrits.

 

[Wandered Off]

Isn't it already mandatory to purchase insurance? Like, to drive a car or operate a business?

State governments have wielded that power for some time. This is the first instance of the federal government doing so.

I'm not arguing that this is a violation, but some people are.

I don't know whether the special provisions for the residents of Nebraska, Florida, and Louisiana are still present, but if they are, then that appears to me suspiciously close to violating the equal protection clause - but I'm no lawyer or scholar.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Actually I do think that social security has been a fraudulent ponzi scam and I don't trust the government any more with health care then I do with social security. Just wondering how long it will take to run us into the ground?

I win a cookie!

 

[Mr Cheese]

It is unconstitutional as a state's rights issue, but not in any new way. The clauses used to justify letting the federal government reform healthcare are the same ones used to justify letting the federal government establish a national minimum drinking age and criminalize pot and prostitution. If you take note of anything that seems oddly uniform across all the states, it's probably from the federal government using some loophole to extort the states into uniformity.

And since the guys who are calling the healthcare bill unconstitutional are probably the same ones who will fight tooth and nail to keep pot illegal, i feel kinda justified in calling them hypocrits.

and smoking pot doesnt kill 45,000 a year

 

[Gunfingers]

and smoking pot doesnt kill 45,000 a year

I take issue with this line of reasoning for two reasons.

1) Justifying violating the constitution because "people might die" is the same fear-based reasoning that lead to concentration camps and gitmo. And the ban on pot, for that matter. The fact that it's your pet issue doesn't make it okay.

2) THE GORRAM STATES CAN DO IT. Seriously. Talk to your state legislature and get the EXACT SAME THING but without violating the constitution. I REALLY don't get why no one understands that, like, ever.

 

[Falvlun]

In addition, the healthcare law upsets the checks placed on any one government body from wielding too much power and becoming overly centralised. An unchecked power like that can easily become serious trouble in the making. Our Constitution was set up to avoid that from occurring.

What about the check and balance upon the health insurance industry?

I dunno. I don't see how fear that health care reform might lead to an all-powerful communist government should trump the actuality that Americans pay twice as much for inferior care, that medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy, and that health care and the health insurance industries can basically charge whatever they want since health care isn't a luxury but a necessity.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You are not being "forced". You can either purchase health insurance or pay a levy on your income tax that will go toward the cost of public health care.

Perhaps "levy" can be better translated into fine as there is no assessment here. Folks who don't wish or need health insurance face repeatable fines should they reject this mandate until they are purchase it. It is a forced measure for people to buy insurance whether they want it or not.

 

[Falvlun]

2) THE GORRAM STATES CAN DO IT. Seriously. Talk to your state legislature and get the EXACT SAME THING but without violating the constitution. I REALLY don't get why no one understands that, like, ever.

Good point. Does any liberal have a good reason why dems decided to force the health care issue on the federal level, rather than focus on state level?

A couple of reasons, off the top of my head:
1. Federal gov has a better long term ability to pay for it than states do.
2. It would put states with tighter restrictions at a greater disadvantage than states with little to no restrictions, ie, when people got sick, they could just move somewhere that has insurance subsidies and no discrimination against pre-existing condition. (Although, I believe that Hawaii has an excellent system in place-- requires employers to provide health care, among other things-- and they seem to be doing ok.)
3. In states that chose not to pass reform legislation there would still be the huge problem of people without adequate care in a very rich country.

 

[Mr Cheese]

3. In states that chose not to pass reform legislation there would still be the huge problem of people without adequate care in a very rich country.

I think this is a major reason....

this country is still very bigoted in many areas....

 

[Wandered Off]

Good point. Does any liberal have a good reason why dems decided to force the health care issue on the federal level, rather than focus on state level?

I wouldn't call myself a liberal, but I will throw in some guesses:
1. Their eventual goal is a single-payer system, and a state-oriented solution would not be a step in that direction, while a national program is.
2. There are efficiencies in managing one program that are lost with a patchwork of 50-odd different programs.
3. The very nature of insurance provides a natural push toward maximizing the size of the risk pool to reduce individual costs.

 

[Twilight Hue]

What about the check and balance upon the health insurance industry?

I dunno. I don't see how fear that health care reform might lead to an all-powerful communist government should trump the actuality that Americans pay twice as much for inferior care, that medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy, and that health care and the health insurance industries can basically charge whatever they want since health care isn't a luxury but a necessity.

I'm not against reformation of health care mind you but this IMO this is being done haphazardly and in dangerous fashion. What the federal government has done is it nullified states ability to implement their own programs as they see fit or to opt out of them and eliminates the common persons right to choose a better system in way of living in a state that better suits their needs. The federal law eliminates a healthy competition between states by hobbling their right to choose due to a centralised system that is arguably not covered in the Constitution.

While this particular program itself may not turn us right away into a Communist entity, it certainly opens a dangerous door to where the federal government can impose future mandates and severely cripple and even eliminate the rights of states to find their own solutions. If health care laws such as this are imposed, whats to stop the federal government from forcibly mandating "other things" and treading over states objections should it not agree? That's too much power for one body of government to wield. Folks need to remember we are a unified republic . That's the issue here. Trust me we don't want to lose that even as ****** of at my own state for their own way of doing things, at least if I don't like the political environment I can have a choice to move to a better system in another state should I wish. With a powerful centralized government system there is no place to run and nowhere to go. That's not the country I remember being taught about in Social Studies.

 

[Wandered Off]

If health care laws such as this are imposed, whats to stop the federal government from forcibly mandating "other things" and treading over states objections should it not agree? That's too much power for one body of government to wield.

The government took a significant stake in General Motors. Could it mandate that we buy GM vehicles or levy a tax if we didn't? Yeah, cars are not the same kind of necessity as medical care, but I believe we need explicit lines to prevent future abuses.

 

[Walkntune]

I win a cookie!

No I only agree social security is a joke so just get a stale crumb.

 

[Mr Cheese]

No I only agree social security is a joke so just get a stale crumb.

flip flopper!

 

[Mr Cheese]

I'm not against reformation of health care mind you but this IMO this is being done haphazardly and in dangerous fashion. What the federal government has done is it nullified states ability to implement their own programs as they see fit or to opt out of them and eliminates the common persons right to choose a better system in way of living in a state that better suits their needs. The federal law eliminates a healthy competition between states by hobbling their right to choose due to a centralised system that is arguably not covered in the Constitution.

While this particular program itself may not turn us right away into a Communist entity, it certainly opens a dangerous door to where the federal government can impose future mandates and severely cripple and even eliminate the rights of states to find their own solutions. If health care laws such as this are imposed, whats to stop the federal government from forcibly mandating "other things" and treading over states objections should it not agree? That's too much power for one body of government to wield. Folks need to remember we are a unified republic . That's the issue here. Trust me we don't want to lose that even as ****** of at my own state for their own way of doing things, at least if I don't like the political environment I can have a choice to move to a better system in another state should I wish. With a powerful centralized government system there is no place to run and nowhere to go. That's not the country I remember being taught about in Social Studies.

damn the gubberment....

me and Cletus have our guns, we rub possum oil on our cuts

we dont need no steekin health care

 

[Alceste]

I would realy like to know if Walkintune was being sarcastic, or if he really feels that abolition, woman's suffrage, the New Deal, Social Security, civil rights and seatbelts have led to the downfall of America.

I meant Seyorni - she was being sarcastic, Walkntune was being serious. Hence the warning to Walkntune...

 

[Alceste]

Perhaps "levy" can be better translated into fine as there is no assessment here. Folks who don't wish or need health insurance face repeatable fines should they reject this mandate until they are purchase it. It is a forced measure for people to buy insurance whether they want it or not.

Nonsense. The cost of health insurance, as I understand it, is not to exceed 10 % of your income (which means that for most people, it will be 10 % of their income, since it's still handled by the private sector). The "fine" is only 0.5 %. How is saving 95% of your personal burden for the collective cost of health care by choosing not to have insurance "forcing" you to buy insurance?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Isn't it already mandatory to purchase insurance? Like, to drive a car or operate a business?

It is not mandatory to drive a car or run a business. If you don't like the requirements, you simply do not have to run a business or drive a car. You have a choice.

With mandated health care, you do not have a choice.

 

[Twilight Hue]

damn the gubberment....

me and Cletus have our guns, we rub possum oil on our cuts

we dont need no steekin health care

Is that the best you can do? ROFLMAO