How long did it take for intelligence to exist in the universe?

[shawn001]

Far as I know protozoa and baterium have intelligence also plants have intelligence and have no need of a nervous system.

But then again intelligence is just an illusion anyway based off of determinism.

"Far as I know protozoa and baterium have intelligence also plants have intelligence and have no need of a nervous system."

Please explain and when you do you'll see its based on chemical reactions and signalling and not actual intelligence.

 

[shawn001]

I think a single brain cell shows signs of intelligence without the nervous system. As someone mentioned single celled organisms show some signs.

You grow brain cells because that is part of a central nervous system.

 

[shawn001]

Do you basically think that intelligence came after the big bang?

as far as we know at this point.

 

[shawn001]

Intelligence existing pre-universe doesn't mean the universe was intelligently designed.

Very true.

 

[shawn001]

Idav, you have to have nucleosynthesis in order to create the elements in the first place that evolve into an intelligence.

There might be other processes in other universe if there are other universes, but in this one you need nucleosynthesis and more things to occur.

 

[idav]

Idav, you have to have nucleosynthesis in order to create the elements in the first place that evolve into an intelligence.

There might be other processes in other universe if there are other universes, but in this one you need nucleosynthesis and more things to occur.

Nucleosynthesis happened at the big bang but did it do so unintelligently? Is that like bringing order out of chaos, when in fact it is still chaos but something more manageable. Seems that matter needed to have the potential and at least basic qualities in order to settle into something that thinks and analyzes.

 

[idav]

I think you have grossly under estimated.

I think he was kidding, there is at least intelligent life in the oceans somewhere. Humans might even get there some day, lol.

 

[shawn001]

Nucleosynthesis happened at the big bang but did it do so unintelligently? Is that like bringing order out of chaos, when in fact it is still chaos but something more manageable. Seems that matter needed to have the potential and at least basic qualities in order to settle into something that thinks and analyzes.

There was big bang nucleosynthesis, but importantly there was stellar nucleosynthesis from the first super nova stars that blew up. You also have to have the stellar nucleosynthesis, which is where carbon were made out of came from, all the heavy elements.

" Is that like bringing order out of chaos"

Actually the singularity was more "orderly" then the universe now, which would be the chaos and fits the second law of theormo dynamics. The universe is becoming less orderly. But we see it from a different perspective, because of how humans place importance on themselves.


At the time of the big bang matter and anti matter anniliated each other but there is a particle in anitmatter that has a shorter life span so matter won out, otherwise they would have canceled each other out.

"Seems that matter needed to have the potential and at least basic qualities in order to settle into something that thinks and analyzes.'

Yes a nervous system at the very least, the more complex the nervous system, the more it might be intelligent.

Bacteria aren't really intelligent, they can use chemicals to signal and to move around their enviroments. Plants can have chemical signaling too, but because they lack a nervous system, there not concious, like animals with more evolved nervous systems. The nervous system evolved around 6 million to 550 million years ago, as part of protection from animals enviroments as they moved around like the fight or flight responce from the central nervous system.

 

[shawn001]

idav

Check this out its very cool. Especially the work on dolphins communicating.

THROUGH THE WORMHOLE: Will We Survive First Contact

[youtube]AmeWDaY0R7Y[/youtube]
THROUGH THE WORMHOLE: Will We Survive First Contact | S03E01 - YouTube

 

[idav]

There was big bang nucleosynthesis, but importantly there was stellar nucleosynthesis from the first super nova stars that blew up. You also have to have the stellar nucleosynthesis, which is where carbon were made out of came from, all the heavy elements.

It was still potential from the beginning. Why would another step need to be done before intelligence is possible?

Actually the singularity was more "orderly" then the universe now, which would be the chaos and fits the second law of theormo dynamics. The universe is becoming less orderly. But we see it from a different perspective, because of how humans place importance on themselves.

Actually it wasn't all that orderly. Coming from a quantum state at an insane temperature beyond unstable.

At the time of the big bang matter and anti matter anniliated each other but there is a particle in anitmatter that has a shorter life span so matter won out, otherwise they would have canceled each other out.

Sounds chaotic to say the least. So chaotic that it is a miracle it survived.

Yes a nervous system at the very least, the more complex the nervous system, the more it might be intelligent.

I don't really think you need a nervous system for intelligence. I do however think the cells need help to be intelligent. The cells by themselves won't do it which is what the nervous system solves.

Bacteria aren't really intelligent, they can use chemicals to signal and to move around their enviroments. Plants can have chemical signaling too, but because they lack a nervous system, there not concious, like animals with more evolved nervous systems. The nervous system evolved around 6 million to 550 million years ago, as part of protection from animals enviroments as they moved around like the fight or flight responce from the central nervous system.

I could argue the same for the brain, that it isn't really intelligent cause it is just responding to chemical reactions from outside and inner stimuli. It does say something that it takes millions and trillions of connection to make one intelligent entity. What it also means is that intelligence is merely the communication of many singular entities engaged in specific tasks which tells me that intelligence does exist at the micro levels without the need for complexity.

 

[shawn001]

It was still potential from the beginning. Why would another step need to be done before intelligence is possible?

Because big bang nucleosynthesis didn't produce the carbon were made out of, stars did that job. We are carbon based life forms.

Actually it wasn't all that orderly. Coming from a quantum state at an insane temperature beyond unstable.

the singularity would be the most ordered, chaos after that insued to create the universe, by the second law of thermodynamics.

Sounds chaotic to say the least. So chaotic that it is a miracle it survived.

It almost didn't, antimatter could have won out and perhaps we would be antimatter life forms? If however you ever meet your twin antimatter self, don't shake hands, you would cause a violent explosion.


I don't really think you need a nervous system for intelligence. I do however think the cells need help to be intelligent. The cells by themselves won't do it which is what the nervous system solves.

You have to have a nervous system to be intelligent. A brain cell helps make you intelligent because we evolved a brain and before that a nervous system. A skin cell is not intelligent. We can see intelligence arise in animals from a simple nervous system to a more complex one. You also need conciousness and that arises from a nervous system and that happened about 600 to 550 million years ago. Some animals before the dnosaurs were smart and some dinosaurs has pretty complex social groups.

I could argue the same for the brain, that it isn't really intelligent cause it is just responding to chemical reactions from outside and inner stimuli. It does say something that it takes millions and trillions of connection to make one intelligent entity. What it also means is that intelligence is merely the communication of many singular entities engaged in specific tasks which tells me that intelligence does exist at the micro levels without the need for complexity.

The electric brain

"Basically there are two types of animals: animals, and animals that have no brains; they are called plants. They don't need a nervous system because they don't move actively, they don't pull up their roots and run in a forest fire! Anything that moves actively requires a nervous system; otherwise it would come to a quick death."

NOVA | The Electric Brain

You have heard of the fight or flight in animals yes?

 

[shawn001]

sorry part of my posts are in your quote and some not. My quote button doesn't work.

Idav, you know the word Entropy and how that applies to the universe?

 

[garrydons]

I think God is the only 1 with the answer to that 1 !

I agree with you that only God has the answer because He alone exist from from eternity to eternity.

 

[shawn001]

I agree with you that only God has the answer because He alone exist from from eternity to eternity.

You agree with who?

What god would that be? Your god of "your opinion"?

I am looking for the real god, what one would that be out of the millions of them?

Yours I bet of course. Based on your beliefs and opinion.

""I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-- Stephen Roberts "

I am however, not an atheist but agnostic.

 

[idav]

The electric brain
Because big bang nucleosynthesis didn't produce the carbon were made out of, stars did that job. We are carbon based life forms.

Doesn't mean that carbon is the only thing that can be intelligent even prior to lifeforms forming.

the singularity would be the most ordered, chaos after that insued to create the universe, by the second law of thermodynamics.

If it was at a quantum state then it was far from orderly and it was it's very instability that gave rise to the rest.

It almost didn't, antimatter could have won out and perhaps we would be antimatter life forms? If however you ever meet your twin antimatter self, don't shake hands, you would cause a violent explosion.

Thats what I hear.

You have to have a nervous system to be intelligent. A brain cell helps make you intelligent because we evolved a brain and before that a nervous system. A skin cell is not intelligent. We can see intelligence arise in animals from a simple nervous system to a more complex one. You also need conciousness and that arises from a nervous system and that happened about 600 to 550 million years ago. Some animals before the dnosaurs were smart and some dinosaurs has pretty complex social groups.

I don't see why you need a nervous system to be intelligent. Jellyfish are intelligent. There are microorganisms that learn, even if they are just reacting to chemicals like our brain.

"Basically there are two types of animals: animals, and animals that have no brains; they are called plants. They don't need a nervous system because they don't move actively, they don't pull up their roots and run in a forest fire! Anything that moves actively requires a nervous system; otherwise it would come to a quick death."

NOVA | The Electric Brain

You have heard of the fight or flight in animals yes?

A plant can be intelligent even if it can't move uproot. I'm sure there are plenty of plants that wish they could run with the rest of the animals during a fire. The plants defenses would be going up and they would be moving away from danger as best they can.

 

[idav]

sorry part of my posts are in your quote and some not. My quote button doesn't work.

Idav, you know the word Entropy and how that applies to the universe?

No prob. In the reply window, highlighting and quoting is handy. I've gotten used to it.

With Entropy the universe started off with all the energy in one place. I do understand that the energy then had to be stored in order for life to come about which requires the stellar systems. However even life is pretty short lived and the only thing keeping us going is that we are replacing cells faster than they are dieing. Replication is an important feature which neucleosynthesis kinda takes care of without the life requirement.

 

[shawn001]

Doesn't mean that carbon is the only thing that can be intelligent even prior to lifeforms forming.

Not on earth all life forms are carbon based. In space the two best candidates are carbon and silicon.

If it was at a quantum state then it was far from orderly and it was it's very instability that gave rise to the rest.

Why I use the the second law of thermo dynamics and then mentioned Entrophy, ever since the "singularity" were in a state of entrophy.


Thats what I hear.

Tiss true.

I don't see why you need a nervous system to be intelligent. Jellyfish are intelligent. There are microorganisms that learn, even if they are just reacting to chemicals like our brain.

They have simple nervous system and can react to certain stimuli, but here we would need to define intelligence more accurately. To call jellyfish intelligent is stretching intelligence a bit. A simple nervous system developed in part for the fight or flight and animal survival.

How intelligent are jellyfish?

How intelligent are jellyfish? - Quora

octopuses are way more intelligent and have a more complex brain.

Which ones would those be? If they are learning what cells are processing the information?

A plant can be intelligent even if it can't move uproot. I'm sure there are plenty of plants that wish they could run with the rest of the animals during a fire. The plants defenses would be going up and they would be moving away from danger as best they can.

For some plants and trees, part of their reproductive cycles and the enviroments they live in depends on fires.

A plant can be intelligent even if it can't move uproot. I'm sure there are plenty of plants that wish they could run with the rest of the animals during a fire. The plants defenses would be going up and they would be moving away from danger as best they can.


But

"plants have biochemistry, cell biology and electrophysiology similar to the human nervous system. "

"Plants communicate via chemical substances," Mancuso says. "They have a specific and fairly extensive vocabulary to convey alarms, health and a host of other things."

Smarty Plants: Inside the World's Only Plant-Intelligence Lab


"Stefano Mancuso gives a compelling TED talk on how plants behave in ways that exhibit intelligence, from fighting predators to finding food"

TED Talk: Are Plants Intelligent Beings? : TreeHugger


Again we would need to define intelligence better here.

Chemical reactions to stimuli and simple behaviors like plants and insects and then self awareness, abstract though, communication, reasoning, emotions, planning, reasoning, learning, and problem solving, in animals with a more developed higher nervous system.

 

[shawn001]

No prob. In the reply window, highlighting and quoting is handy. I've gotten used to it.

With Entropy the universe started off with all the energy in one place. I do understand that the energy then had to be stored in order for life to come about which requires the stellar systems. However even life is pretty short lived and the only thing keeping us going is that we are replacing cells faster than they are dieing. Replication is an important feature which neucleosynthesis kinda takes care of without the life requirement.

How a sandcastle reveals the end of all things

"Professor Brian Cox builds sandcastles in the Namib Desert to explain why time travels in one direction. It is a result of a phenomenon called entropy; a law of physics that tells us any system tends towards disorder."


[youtube]uQSoaiubuA0[/youtube]
How a sandcastle reveals the end of all things - Wonders of the Universe - BBC Two - YouTube



TEDxCaltech - Sean Carroll - Cosmology and the Arrow of Time


[youtube]WMaTyg8wR4Y[/youtube]
TEDxCaltech - Sean Carroll - Cosmology and the Arrow of Time - YouTube

 

[shawn001]

The singularity would have been intially in thermal equilibrium, until it cooled enough for atoms to become neutralized.

 

[idav]

The singularity would have been intially in thermal equilibrium, until it cooled enough for atoms to become neutralized.

It wasn't really an equilibrium. It was chaotic and unstable and ready to start expanding. Just as you mentioned it was a huge war between matter and antimatter to the point that there could have been nothing left.