How Many Christian Denominations Are There?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Denomination = a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church. Denominations are sects that have gone out of the original group of disciples of Jesus. Bible is against such sects.

That's one take on it. Another - the one I had in mind - is something like "a group of religious congregations organized under a single administrative hierarchy."

Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Gal. 5:19-21

I'm confused: on the one hand, you're saying that "divisions" among Christians are bad, but on the other hand, you're saying "I'm not part of those Christians (the ones who you say are in 'denominations')"... IOW, you're being divisive yourself.

But obviously this depends on how you define Christianity. If it does not mean to be a disciple of Jesus, then maybe you are correct. I recommend everyone to rather be a disciple of Jesus in that case. And to be that doesn't need any denomination, it is enough to have the teachings of Jesus and to remain in his word.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

Most likely, I take the same approach to defining Christianity that you take to defining religions that you don't believe in.

I decide whether someone is a Christian based on two things: self-identity and community:

- self-identity: does the person call themselves a Christian?
- community: is there a larger group of self-identified Christians who accept the person as a fellow Christian?

Questions of doctrine or "discipleship" matter in this process only to the extent that the people involved use them as criteria when answering those two questions.

 

[Heyo]

Denominations are sects that have gone out of the original group of disciples of Jesus. Bible is against such sects.

But who is the "original"? The great schism was an even split and both parties see themselves as the original.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That is interesting, but I don't see any good reason to believe them.

You don't see any reason to believe experts? You think you know more than them?

 

[1213]

You don't see any reason to believe experts? You think you know more than them?

It doesn't matter if one is called an expert, if there is no good reasons, evidence or proof for a claim.

 

[1213]

But who is the "original"? The great schism was an even split and both parties see themselves as the original.

Originals are all those who remain in the word of Jesus and have not replaced his teachings by their own doctrines.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

 

[Ella S.]

I would say that there are seven. Orthodox, Ethiopian, Catholic, Protestant, Neo-Gnostic, Esoteric, and the newer movements often considered New Religious Movements.

Orthodox including the Russian Orthodox, Ukraine Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc

Ethiopian mostly just being the stand-along Ethiopian Church.

Catholic including Roman Catholicism, Episcopalianism, Anglicanism, etc.

Protestant including Baptism, Fundamentalism, Pentecostalism, Lutheranism, etc.

Neo-Gnostic including Mandaenism, Johannism, Valentinianism, etc.

Esoteric including Rosicrucianism, Swedenborgianism, Christian Cabala, etc.

And the newer movements including Rastafarianism, Jefffersonianism, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of the Latter Day Saints, etc.

Sorting it this way puts emphasis on how they arose, allowing each one to trace themselves back through a specific route to early Christianity. The Protestants to Catholicism, the Catholics and Orthodox and Ethiopian churches to the Proto-Orthodox Church, the Neo-Gnostics to the ancient Gnostics, the esoteric to various esoteric philosophies, and the new movements to modern philosophies.

 

[paarsurrey]

I would say that there are seven. Orthodox, Ethiopian, Catholic, Protestant, Neo-Gnostic, Esoteric, and the newer movements often considered New Religious Movements.

Orthodox including the Russian Orthodox, Ukraine Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc

Ethiopian mostly just being the stand-along Ethiopian Church.

Catholic including Roman Catholicism, Episcopalianism, Anglicanism, etc.

Protestant including Baptism, Fundamentalism, Pentecostalism, Lutheranism, etc.

Neo-Gnostic including Mandaenism, Johannism, Valentinianism, etc.

Esoteric including Rosicrucianism, Swedenborgianism, Christian Cabala, etc.

And the newer movements including Rastafarianism, Jefffersonianism, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of the Latter Day Saints, etc.

Sorting it this way puts emphasis on how they arose, allowing each one to trace themselves back through a specific route to early Christianity. The Protestants to Catholicism, the Catholics and Orthodox and Ethiopian churches to the Proto-Orthodox Church, the Neo-Gnostics to the ancient Gnostics, the esoteric to various esoteric philosophies, and the new movements to modern philosophies.

" there are seven. Orthodox, Ethiopian, Catholic, Protestant, Neo-Gnostic, Esoteric, and the newer movements "
Does any of them reaches to (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah and his teachings or did they all stem from the fake vision Hellenist Paul fabricated, please, right???

Regards
__________
Note: (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah never gave teachings or even supported the Hellenist deity (of dying, rising, atoning and ascending), if yes, then anybody kindly quote from him in this connection, please, right?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It doesn't matter if one is called an expert, if there is no good reasons, evidence or proof for a claim.

There are criteria for someone being an expert. They have done the homework and gotten their PhD in the subject or similar. Their assessment carries more weight than yours. Let me ask you something. If you needed surgery on your foot, would you go to a surgeon, or would you do the surgery yourself? If your engine is knocking, and the mechanic says it needs X done to fix it, do you say, "No I know better, I'm going to change the oil"??

 

[1213]

There are criteria for someone being an expert. They have done the homework and gotten their PhD in the subject or similar. Their assessment carries more weight than yours. Let me ask you something. If you needed surgery on your foot, would you go to a surgeon, or would you do the surgery yourself? If your engine is knocking, and the mechanic says it needs X done to fix it, do you say, "No I know better, I'm going to change the oil"??

If I choose an expert, I choose an expert who can explain properly.

 

[Ella S.]

" there are seven. Orthodox, Ethiopian, Catholic, Protestant, Neo-Gnostic, Esoteric, and the newer movements "
Does any of them reaches to (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah and his teachings or did they all stem from the fake vision Hellenist Paul fabricated, please, right???

Regards
__________
Note: (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah never gave teachings or even supported the Hellenist deity (of dying, rising, atoning and ascending), if yes, then anybody kindly quote from him in this connection, please, right?

None of the teachings of the Ebionites, Nazarenes, Jewish Christians, etc. have survived in the form of a traditional lineage, as far as I'm aware. All attempts at reconstructing their beliefs would therefore fall under the "newer movements" as a form of modern reconstructionism.

That said, much of the Neo-Gnostic, Esoteric, and newer movements do disregard Paul. I've only ever seen one Gnostic Christian defend Paul, and then they were buried under arguments from Neo-Sethians, Neo-Valentinians, Neo-Cathars, and Johannites.

That said, no teachings of Yeshua have survived to the modern age. All we have are post-contemporary accounts of what his followers believed. We can't actually reconstruct what Yeshua taught or thought at all.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
" there are seven. Orthodox, Ethiopian, Catholic, Protestant, Neo-Gnostic, Esoteric, and the newer movements "
Does any of them reaches to (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah and his teachings or did they all stem from the fake vision Hellenist Paul fabricated, please, right???

Regards
__________
Note: (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah never gave teachings or even supported the Hellenist deity (of dying, rising, atoning and ascending), if yes, then anybody kindly quote from him in this connection, please, right?

None of the teachings of the Ebionites, Nazarenes, Jewish Christians, etc. have survived in the form of a traditional lineage, as far as I'm aware. All attempts at reconstructing their beliefs would therefore fall under the "newer movements" as a form of modern reconstructionism.

That said, much of the Neo-Gnostic, Esoteric, and newer movements do disregard Paul*. I've only ever seen one Gnostic Christian defend Paul, and then they were buried under arguments from Neo-Sethians, Neo-Valentinians, Neo-Cathars, and Johannites.
That said, no teachings of Yeshua have survived to the modern age. All we have are post-contemporary accounts of what his followers believed. We can't actually reconstruct what Yeshua taught or thought at all.

" newer movements do disregard Paul "*

" We can't actually reconstruct what Yeshua taught or thought at all. "

One can't have both (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah and the Hellenist- Paul- the seed of AntiChrist together, one gets to know, please, right?

If one believes in Hellenist-Paul who faked a vision and self-styled himself an Apostle, then such a person, it transpires, is under an illusion that he believes in (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, please, right?

Can (the seed) of Anti-Christ be an apostle of (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, please, that is a valid question, please?? Right?

Either believe in Paul or believe in Yeshua, that is the only choice, one imagines the " Christians" are confronted with, please, right?

Regards
_________________
*Search terms: “newer movements do disregard Paul”?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskBibleSc...re_there_christian_sects_that_disregard_paul/
"Is there a theological movement around denying that Paul was an apostle?"
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChrist..._there_a_theological_movement_around_denying/

 

[Ella S.]

paarsurrey said: ↑
" there are seven. Orthodox, Ethiopian, Catholic, Protestant, Neo-Gnostic, Esoteric, and the newer movements "
Does any of them reaches to (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah and his teachings or did they all stem from the fake vision Hellenist Paul fabricated, please, right???

Regards
__________
Note: (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah never gave teachings or even supported the Hellenist deity (of dying, rising, atoning and ascending), if yes, then anybody kindly quote from him in this connection, please, right?


" newer movements do disregard Paul "*

" We can't actually reconstruct what Yeshua taught or thought at all. "

One can't have both (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah and the Hellenist- Paul- the seed of AntiChrist together, one gets to know, please, right?

If one believes in Hellenist-Paul who faked a vision and self-styled himself an Apostle, then such a person, it transpires, is under an illusion that he believes in (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, please, right?

Can (the seed) of Anti-Christ be an apostle of (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, please, that is a valid question, please?? Right?

Either believe in Paul or believe in Yeshua, that is the only choice, one imagines the " Christians" are confronted with, please, right?

Regards
_________________
*Search terms: “newer movements do disregard Paul”?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskBibleSc...re_there_christian_sects_that_disregard_paul/
"Is there a theological movement around denying that Paul was an apostle?"
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChrist..._there_a_theological_movement_around_denying/

I agree that Paul/Saul of Tarsus is not a reliable source for what Yeshua bar Yosef of Nazareth taught or believed. In fact, if it wasn't for Marcion preserving his letters, it seems many early Christians were content to have his views lost in the sands of time. By Saul's own admission, he was not necessarily teaching the same things as Simon bar Yona and Ya'akov bar Yosef, who are the only historical figures that I think are likely to have known Yeshua in life.

However, the other texts we have about Yeshua are mostly anonymous or pseudonymous, written decades after his death, likely by people who never knew him personally. Even during Saul's time, there was some fragmentation among Christians about what they believe, and all of these texts were written after some time had passed for these various concepts to grow into entire sub-movements like the Ebionites, the Nazarenes, the Sethians, the Valentinians, etc.

If Saul is not a reliable source on what Yeshua taught and believed, which I don't think he is, then none of the other texts are, either, because they're even further from the source.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The differences may seem small to outsiders but they are sufficient to prevent them worshiping together.
Some even deny each others Christianity over what to others seem trivial.

Doctrinal details are usually highly contentious and divisive.

45000 would seem the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Heyo]

The differences may seem small to outsiders but they are sufficient to prevent them worshiping together.

Sometimes, somewhere. We have an ecumenical movement which is strong where my parents live. Neither congregation would fill a church on its own. My cousin was at an ecumenical service and they also had a klezmer band. She said that that wouldn't have been possible where she lives.

My prediction is, as the environment changes (fewer people going to church), natural selection will root out conservative denominations and others will hybridize. But don't hold your breath, evolutionary change is slow.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Either believe in Paul or believe in Yeshua, that is the only choice, one imagines the " Christians" are confronted with, please, right?

I believe in both Paul and Jesus..

I don't believe that Paul was a prophet, but a reasonably well-educated pharisee with Hellenist roots.
Initially, he dismissed Jesus as "just another one claiming to be the messiah", but he changed his mind, and was instrumental in bringing faith in the One God to non-Jews.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe in both Paul and Jesus..

I don't believe that Paul was a prophet, but a reasonably well-educated pharisee with Hellenist roots.
Initially, he dismissed Jesus as "just another one claiming to be the messiah", but he changed his mind, and was instrumental in bringing faith in the One God to non-Jews.

Paul is the one responsible for the theology that Jesus is God. I'm surprised that as a Muslim you can tolerate Paul.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Paul is the one responsible for the theology that Jesus is God. I'm surprised that as a Muslim you can tolerate Paul.

Not really .. the author(s) of the Gospel of John set the agenda .. Paul's letters are understood in that context.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not really .. the author(s) of the Gospel of John set the agenda .. Paul's letters are understood in that context.

Paul's letters predate the gospel of Jjohn.

 

[metis]

Paul's letters predate the gospel of Jjohn.

And that becomes important since the very late writing of the Gospel of John reflects the deepening division between "the Way" and normative Judaism. [I hate using the word "normative", btw]

 

[muhammad_isa]

And that becomes important since the very late writing of the Gospel of John reflects the deepening division between "the Way" and normative Judaism. [I hate using the word "normative", btw]

It's all very complicated isn't it..
Of course, in the time of Jesus and the disciples, they attended the temple in Jerusalem.
Many early documents were lost or burnt by Roman authorities.

Not so with Muhammad .. he recited the Qur'an daily, in congregation.