How many Commandments are there?

[Zardoz]

[
So same sentence...except insert Tiberius rather than Jospeh...is this the explination you offer for her lack of viriginity at the time of birth hence the use of Almah. Or do you simply mean that she never had a virgin birth in the sense that may Chrsitians see it.

Simply out of curisoity, would you mind nameing a few of these things. As I have never spoken with you before.

Fair enough, that link might have made more sense if you knew my positions on Yeshua. Even then, it's a topic I'd rather discuss by PM if you're curious. It's a bit more delicate than I'd like for open forums.

Allow me to recommend this thread for a start:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/scriptural-debates/79855-replacement-theology.html

Added:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/scriptural-debates/82134-special-creation.html

Ben is definitely a Jew to get to know on RF...

 

[TheKnight]

In answer to the OP. If you are Jewish (your mother is Jewish), there are 613 commandments. If you are not Jewish, there are 7 basic commandments.

 

[Zardoz]

whatever the reason, it is impertinent to today's society. if it were of some importance we would still have it. the fact that we dont have it in today's society shows that god's commandments do not stand the test of time.

Who's society? In Jewish society these commandments are alive and relevant. We live them, they are important. Sorry if that's not the case outside of Jewish society.

if god splt the sea and personally interacted with people, how come he doesnt do it now?

The farther Man moves from G-d, G-d is moving away as well, so the distance is doubled. Is less interaction a surprise?

 

[tomasortega]

Who's society? In Jewish society these commandments are alive and relevant. We live them, they are important. Sorry if that's not the case outside of Jewish society.?

really? so nothing has changed? you are telling me that in today's jewish society:


you kill witches?

you kill anyone who worships other gods?

you force rape victims to MARRY their rapists?

you kill homosexuals?

you kill anyone who hits his father or mother?

you kill anyone who curses his parents?

you kill adulterers?

you kill women who are not virgins on their wedding night?

you kill anyone, even your own brothers and sisters, if they try to persuade you to join other religions?

and i can go on and on..........


so what about these commandments????? do you not follow them? are they not outdated??

The farther Man moves from G-d, G-d is moving away as well, so the distance is doubled. Is less interaction a surprise?

less interaction??? try NO interaction.... we have all these precious stories about god revealing himself through a burning bush, clouds, on a mountain, splitting the sea, raining down all sorts of animal pests, like frogs locusts. turning canes into snakes and so on and so forth, and yet NONE of those things or any other supernatural things for that matter ever happened through our actual traceable recordable history.... where is god now? show me someone regrow a war veteran's amputated limb. thats all i ask. simple. and ill believe....but nice story about god moving away proportionately to man. its like, ill take one step, not to be outdone god takes one too...convenient aint it.

 

[Zardoz]

...so what about these commandments????? do you not follow them? are they not outdated??...

These laws were never as you portray them, so I see no point in discussing your twisted versions.

 

[tomasortega]

These laws were never as you portray them, so I see no point in discussing your twisted versions.

twisted versions??? lets see some examples...


exodus 22:17 NIV "do not allow a sorceress to live"

i said, "you kill witches???"

leviticus 20:13 " " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

i said "you kill homosexuals?"

DEUTERONOMY 22 20 21 20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

i said "you kill women who are not virgins on their wedding night?"

DEUTERONOMY 13 7-12 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

i said "you kill anyone, even your own brothers and sisters, if they try to persuade you to join other religions?"





twisted interpretations???? please do show how my interpretations are false.... but something tells me you wont reply. how shameful

 

[Zardoz]

twisted interpretations???? please do show how my interpretations are false.... but something tells me you wont reply. how shameful

I'm not about to waste my time arguing with you about your incorrect Christian interpretations of my religion's laws.
But, just for laughs let's take a closer look at your first 'example' shall we?

exodus 22:17 NIV "do not allow a sorceress to live"

i said, "you kill witches???"

That passage is just another variation of the mistranslated KJV. The authors of the KJV translated the word chasaph -which is Hebrew for poisoner- to mean witch. Why they did this is because in that era it was witches that were most often accused of dealing with poison. However, the original intent of the Hebrew was to condemn poisoners - (whether they be 'witches' or not) because after all, what could be a more foul and despicable method of murder than using poison?

No, I'm not going to rebuke point by point all your other NIV and KJV quotes, because they are NOT JEWISH!

 

[tomasortega]

I'm not about to waste my time arguing with you about your incorrect Christian interpretations of my religion's laws.
But, just for laughs let's take a closer look at your first 'example' shall we?


That passage is just another variation of the mistranslated KJV. The authors of the KJV translated the word chasaph -which is Hebrew for poisoner- to mean witch. Why they did this is because in that era it was witches that were most often accused of dealing with poison. However, the original intent of the Hebrew was to condemn poisoners - (whether they be 'witches' or not) because after all, what could be a more foul and despicable method of murder than using poison?

No, I'm not going to rebuke point by point all your other NIV and KJV quotes, because they are NOT JEWISH!

ok. i will give you this one. your explanation absolutely makes sense.

but there is no way you can tell me that all of these ridiculous commandments were mistranslated. how in the heck is someone gonna mistranslate 1 male sleeping with 1 other male as with 1 female, deserving death?? or do you mean to tell me the judao god is pro or indifferent to homosexuality? i think not. explain this one away. do you kill homosexuals?

how is someone gonna mistranslate death for striking or cursing his parents?

what about this longer text that orders a woman's death through stoning in front of her fathers door, for not being a virgin on her weddingnight??? WHOLE THING MISTRANSLATED? I THINK NOT.

you just took the easy way out and jumped on the sorceress commandment.

but if you can somehow explain away all these commandments as misunderstandings, i will bow down to you and place whatever you want in my signature for 1 month. if you cant, i take it youre a fraud and only follow those commandments which are socially acceptable while ignoring the rest. the point here is to prove that there is no way in heck someone in today's world can still live 100% by the now considered bigoted commandments of thousands of years ago. the christians have an easy way out of this one with jesus, you on the other hand are stuck. so again, my challenge stands. its up to you to follow through or run and hide

 

[gwk230]

In Sinaiticism, which can be learned about at www.nccicharlotte.com , we find only about 450 laws within the Torah without redundancy.

 

[TheKnight]

ok. i will give you this one. your explanation absolutely makes sense.

but there is no way you can tell me that all of these ridiculous commandments were mistranslated. how in the heck is someone gonna mistranslate 1 male sleeping with 1 other male as with 1 female, deserving death?? or do you mean to tell me the judao god is pro or indifferent to homosexuality? i think not. explain this one away. do you kill homosexuals?

how is someone gonna mistranslate death for striking or cursing his parents?

what about this longer text that orders a woman's death through stoning in front of her fathers door, for not being a virgin on her weddingnight??? WHOLE THING MISTRANSLATED? I THINK NOT.

you just took the easy way out and jumped on the sorceress commandment.

but if you can somehow explain away all these commandments as misunderstandings, i will bow down to you and place whatever you want in my signature for 1 month. if you cant, i take it youre a fraud and only follow those commandments which are socially acceptable while ignoring the rest. the point here is to prove that there is no way in heck someone in today's world can still live 100% by the now considered bigoted commandments of thousands of years ago. the christians have an easy way out of this one with jesus, you on the other hand are stuck. so again, my challenge stands. its up to you to follow through or run and hide

You misunderstand his point. You are trying to understand Jewish concepts with Christianized goggles. You are quoting those verses as if you are debating a Christian.

In the Jewish system, these commandments, while translated correctly (although that could be speculatory) aren't viewed like Christian commandments are. The Jewish system requires the Jewish Oral Tradition.

So to quote something saying "How could God say that I should kill my rebellious son" and trying to use it as an argument isn't a valid argument if you're debating with someone who's system views it entirely different. God is not saying "Parents, when your children disobey, murder them." He's saying, "If it is determined in a valid Jewish capital case, that the son was rebellious to the point that he warrants his death, then it is acceptable to execute him judicially." That is what an Observant Jew or Noahide sees when they read verses like that.

 

[Zardoz]

Yes, and also the bar for proof is very high, which makes many of these laws unlikely to be proven to the point of execution due to the lack of proper proof/witnesses.

The whole point is deterrent, not to promote mass executions. Besides, look at other civilizations contemporary to ancient Israel, they are just as bloody in laws if not moreso, why pick on the Jews?

All these laws are studied seriously by Jews, even if in modern times some are no longer enforced as they were. Some laws are impossible to comply with, such as the laws concerning the Temple service. However, all these laws are still 'on the books' and teach us valuable lessons in living a righteous life. The laws are for our benefit, a gift from G-d.

'It's ways are ways of pleasantness, And all it's paths are peace'

 

[tomasortega]

Yes, and also the bar for proof is very high, which makes many of these laws unlikely to be proven to the point of execution due to the lack of proper proof/witnesses.

we are not talking about the difficulty level in proving someone broke this, or the other law. dont deviate.

The whole point is deterrent, not to promote mass executions. .

i dont care about your interpretation of the point and reasoning behind the laws, i care about the laws themselfes, again stay on topic.

Besides, look at other civilizations contemporary to ancient Israel, they are just as bloody in laws if not moreso, why pick on the Jews?

but mommy, everyone else does it too.......:run: stop justifying your bigoted religion by pointing fingers and spreading the blame. just like a murderer pointing to another murderer, it doesnt make you any less guilty.

All these laws are studied seriously by Jews, even if in modern times some are no longer enforced as they were. Some laws are impossible to comply with, such as the laws concerning the Temple service.

just a few posts ago you said. "In Jewish society these commandments are alive and relevant. We live them, they are important."

now you say some laws are no longer enforced (dead), while others are impossible to keep, so you can't "live them". soooo, what's what and who's who? do you kill homosexuals, non virgins on their wedding night, parent cursers/abusers etc. or not? simple question, yes or no. god ACTIVELY ORDERED/COMMANDED to kill, or not let live certain people for certain reasons, he did not say "you may possibly, given the circumstances, if socially acceptable" stop making excuses. face up. do you obey god's commandments, or do you not? again, christians have an easy way out, you cats don't.

However, all these laws are still 'on the books' and teach us valuable lessons in living a righteous life. The laws are for our benefit, a gift from G-d.'It's ways are ways of pleasantness, And all it's paths are peace'

yes, valuable, pleasant and peaceful lessons in living a righteous life. like murdering your own child or sibling for selling/converting to another religion. or torturing your own daughter to death by crushing her body with stones because she didnt leave blood on her honeymoon sheets, among other valuable life lessons from the one and only big G upstairs. how mighty righteous

 

[Zardoz]

Look. I already told you, twice now, that I'm not going to debate you on every misconception you have. Because, whatever you think you 'know' about Jewish law based on reading KJV and NIV you are in error. It's only Christianity you see there. Any similarities to Jewish Torah are minor, like a reflection in a dirty and cracked mirror.

I am not the one going off topic hither and yon, you are. This discussion began with your wild speculation, remember it?

Originally Posted by tomasortega
1. hardly any commandmends are relevant in the 21st century. some, such as "dont cook a young goat in its mother's milk" are so foolish and impertinent that they only go to show they did NOT originate from a supreme being, but rather from an uneducated putz from that era....

To which I asked:

So, what do you think is the reason behind this commandment? Do you understand it?

Thinking, that maybe you'd explore this intellectually, seek the meaning. Instead, you've just thrown one contorted 'jewish' law after another into the thread. I even gave you one example of how far off they are, tried to help you see the truth.

Enough. I'm done here, I have better things to do here on RF.

 

[Poisonshady313]

now you say some laws are no longer enforced (dead), while others are impossible to keep, so you can't "live them". soooo, what's what and who's who? do you kill homosexuals, non virgins on their wedding night, parent cursers/abusers etc. or not? simple question, yes or no. god ACTIVELY ORDERED/COMMANDED to kill, or not let live certain people for certain reasons, he did not say "you may possibly, given the circumstances, if socially acceptable" stop making excuses. face up. do you obey god's commandments, or do you not? again, christians have an easy way out, you cats don't.

Let me see if I can give an example...

Among the things God commanded include animal offerings. Some to be brought up daily, some to be brought up yearly on certain holidays, etc... God also specified that offerings could only be brought up in the place of His choosing... which was the Tabernacle Moses built, and became the Temple Solomon built.

The Torah explicitly prohibits bringing offerings on private altars... so, not bringing up offerings today, since there is no Temple, doesn't amount to disobeying God's commandments.

Regarding the laws you point out, the fact is Torah laws that came with capital punishments had to be dealt with by the great sanhedrin in the Temple. Something that doesn't exist today.

You seem to be unaware of the extensive and complicated due process afforded to everybody according to Jewish law.

Back when execution COULD be carried out, it was rare to be able to actually put someone to death.


There are laws for women, laws for men, laws for priests, laws for kings, laws for farmers, laws for judges, laws that could only be enforced when the Temple in Jerusalem stood, laws to live by every day even without the Temple.. even without residing within the land of Israel.

And a person is expected to live according to what applies to him.

 

[tomasortega]

Look. I already told you, twice now, that I'm not going to debate you on every misconception you have.

I even gave you one example of how far off they are, tried to help you see the truth..

save it, i already called your bluff. the sorceress commandment was the only one you could explain away as a mistranslation. ud be all over the rest of my examples if you could. but it is what it is. and the truth is just as it seems. you claim all of god's commandments are timeless, alife, and very important even today, and yet, most of those commandments are not practiced anylonger for obvious reasons. amazing how some people willingly delude themselfes. wake up, you have a dead religion.

Enough. I'm done here, I have better things to do here on RF.

yes, run and hide. just what i expected.

 

[Tiapan]

I can see Zardoz point of difference, in his society there is a written law and there is actual circumstance, since the written laws cannot address every individual situation, it is left to those in authority to make a decision made on "commonsense". This contradicts the thinking of "literalists" where there is no commonsense, there is only the "Word". It is a much more plausible and realistic system.

There are those that follow the law without question, and there are those that use it simply as a guide to commonsense.

 

[tomasortega]

I can see Zardoz point of difference, in his society there is a written law and there is actual circumstance, since the written laws cannot address every individual situation, it is left to those in authority to make a decision made on "commonsense". This contradicts the thinking of "literalists" where there is no commonsense, there is only the "Word". It is a much more plausible and realistic system.

There are those that follow the law without question, and there are those that use it simply as a guide to commonsense.

so, when his law actively commands him to kill homosexuals, how exactly does he use this as a guide? either he follows his command, and obeys god, or he does not follow ,disobeys god and disregards his command. there is no guideline or hint taking here. its just like being pregnant, either you are, or you are not. no kinda, sorta maybes...

 

[Tiapan]

As a literalist he should kill homosexuals because that is the law. But as part of a commonsense legal system it would probably be addressed at a re-education camp or extradited to San Francisco or Sydney.

 

[gwk230]

Most of these post reminds me of how a teenage son refutes his fathers wishes thinking and feeling he knows better than the one who raised him. No different than with our father/creator. Man thinks and feels he knows better than his father/creator. Man didn't come to his senses with regards to Torah. He lost is flipping mind. He, as did his fathers, continues to disobey that which was given for his good and long life.

 

[tomasortega]

As a literalist he should kill homosexuals because that is the law. But as part of a commonsense legal system it would probably be addressed at a re-education camp or extradited to San Francisco or Sydney.

you are saying common sense would be changing, underminding, even extraditing god's law... doing these things is also known as, DISOBEYING god's law.


there is no literalyzing, addressing, or reconsidering here my friend. it is what it is. just like when a judge finds you guilty of breaking a certain law and orders you to pay a certain fine. an order is an order, you have to do as the judge says and pay the fine, not take the judge's verdict and order into account as an opinion or guideline and ultimately make your own "common sense" decision. either you obey or you disobey. going back in and changing the laws by reinterpreting them to fit your own agenda of whats convenient and socially acceptable, is not obeying the laws. because you are not following god's original laws anylonger but rather following your own interpretation of god's laws, thus, following your own laws. you cant have it both ways. you either make the affirmation that god's original laws are alife and well, and still important and practiced today, and follow those laws in their original god given form, or you step over god and change them to fit your needs. this is an either or situation. the only way zardoz would be able to say he was still following god's commandments is if god himself came back and edited the laws. NOT MAN.