How many Commandments are there?

[Poisonshady313]

so, when his law actively commands him to kill homosexuals, how exactly does he use this as a guide? either he follows his command, and obeys god, or he does not follow ,disobeys god and disregards his command. there is no guideline or hint taking here. its just like being pregnant, either you are, or you are not. no kinda, sorta maybes...

The procedure for doing this is complicated...

You'd have to have two legitimate witnesses witnessing this homosexual act, and they'd have to tell him that what he is doing is against the law, citing the specific line from the text... and they'd have to acknowledge that they understand what they are doing is contrary to the text, but they are going to go ahead and keep doing it anyway... and the witnesses would have to be present to see this continuation of the act... before it can even be brought to court.

And even then, there are all kinds of procedures by which the judges try to give the accused the benefit of the doubt.


If you think the verse in Leviticus is a simple license to kill gay people for anyone who is able to read it, you are sorely mistaken.

And, of course, without a the Temple, there can be no sanhedrin fit to try capital cases... which would mean it would be a sin to kill homosexuals.

You make the mistake of believing that you can wrap your mind around the workings of the law from a superficial reading of the text. It's not nearly as simple... and not nearly as cruel or heartless, as you make it out to be.

 

[gwk230]

The procedure for doing this is complicated...

You'd have to have to legitimate witnesses witnessing this homosexual act, and they'd have to tell him that what he is doing is against the law, citing the specific line from the text... and they'd have to acknowledge that they understand what they are doing is contrary to the text, but they are going to go ahead and keep doing it anyway... and the witnesses would have to be present to see this continuation of the act... before it can even be brought to court.

And even then, there are all kinds of procedures by which the judges try to give the accused the benefit of the doubt.


If you think the verse in Leviticus is a simple license to kill gay people for anyone who is able to read it, you are sorely mistaken.

And, of course, without a the Temple, there can be no sanhedrin fit to try capital cases... which would mean it would be a sin to kill homosexuals.

You make the mistake of believing that you can wrap your mind around the workings of the law from a superficial reading of the text. It's not nearly as simple... and not nearly as cruel or heartless, as you make it out to be.

Very good post. You have earned frubals from me.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Very good post. You have earned frubals from me.

Wow. Thanks.

 

[tomasortega]

The procedure for doing this is complicated...

You'd have to have two legitimate witnesses witnessing this homosexual act, and they'd have to tell him that what he is doing is against the law, citing the specific line from the text... and they'd have to acknowledge that they understand what they are doing is contrary to the text, but they are going to go ahead and keep doing it anyway... and the witnesses would have to be present to see this continuation of the act... before it can even be brought to court.

And even then, there are all kinds of procedures by which the judges try to give the accused the benefit of the doubt.


If you think the verse in Leviticus is a simple license to kill gay people for anyone who is able to read it, you are sorely mistaken.

And, of course, without a the Temple, there can be no sanhedrin fit to try capital cases... which would mean it would be a sin to kill homosexuals.

You make the mistake of believing that you can wrap your mind around the workings of the law from a superficial reading of the text. It's not nearly as simple... and not nearly as cruel or heartless, as you make it out to be.

you bring up the difficulty in proving someone broke the law as if that would change the law itself.

the law itself is one issue, the difficulty in proving someone broke the law is a completely separate issue.

the question is simple, does your law/set of laws/commandments state, among many other things, that a man should be put to death for having sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, yes or no?????? and do/does you/jewish society follow this law today, yes or no?????? simple as that.

once we have answered that we can move on to other things, such as how difficult it is to prove someone actually broke the law......

 

[gwk230]

the question is simple, does your law/set of laws/commandments state, among many other things, that a man should be put to death for having sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, yes or no??????

Yes it is in Torah.

and do/does you/jewish society follow this law today, yes or no?????? simple as that.

No that part of the judgments of the Torah cannot be fulfilled at this point and time.

 

[Poisonshady313]

the question is simple, does your law/set of laws/commandments state, among many other things, that a man should be put to death for having sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, yes or no??????

Yes

and do/does you/jewish society follow this law today, yes or no?????? simple as that.

Yes, by not bringing capital cases before a court that doesn't exist, and therefore not carrying out an execution it has no authority to carry out (because the court doesn't exist).

The fact that we don't kill gay people at every opportunity doesn't mean we're not following the law.

 

[tomasortega]

The fact that we don't kill gay people at every opportunity doesn't mean we're not following the law.

"..at every opportunity...."

tell me, do you kill gay people for the crime/sin/evil of homosexuality at all???

if yes, then you are following god's command,

if no, then you are not following/ignoring/disregarding god's command(the law).

its very simple.

 

[tomasortega]

No that part of the judgments of the Torah cannot be fulfilled at this point and time.

so then you agree that the commandment regarding homosexuality, among many others, are not practiced/followed/applied/obeyed in/by today's jewish society. thus meaning that god's commandments are NOT timeless and not ALIFE in today's society, making them obsolete.

 

[gwk230]

so then you agree that the commandment regarding homosexuality, among many others, are not practiced/followed/applied/obeyed in/by today's jewish society. thus meaning that god's commandments are NOT timeless and not ALIFE in today's society, making them obsolete.

You cannot add "followed" and or "obeyed in" in this mix. We are talking about one law within the whole of the Torah that if one was to keep the “judgments” of would take what posionshady has already stated. The sons of Elohim do obey the Torah law on homosexuality by abstaining from such abominations but the “judgment” for such an act at this point and time cannot be carried out righteously. Now all that being said I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not jewish as a boy might be girlish or a girl might be boyish. I do not accept the man made religion of judaism. I follow only the words that are written by Moshe that where uttered unto him at Sinai. What and how judaism looks and observes things is of no consequence to me. But what is of consequence is the Torah in all its simplicity. You either make the conscience choice to obey it or you don’t. If we had those things established at this time in the land that Yah put his name then those that are found guilty of and in transgression of the law on homosexuality, and continue to practice that iniquity, would then be put to death. And this Theocracy is going to be established in the future. All will be made to bend their knee to Yah and those who do not, death awaits. :thud:

 

[Poisonshady313]

"..at every opportunity...."

tell me, do you kill gay people for the crime/sin/evil of homosexuality at all???

if yes, then you are following god's command,

if no, then you are not following/ignoring/disregarding god's command(the law).

its very simple.

YOU may be that simple... but this matter is not that simple.

No. I don't kill gay people. Why? Because there is no venue for bringing a capital charge against them, therefore I have no authority to do so.

Therefore i succeed in both following God's command AND not killing gay people.

 

[Poisonshady313]

You cannot add "followed" and or "obeyed in" in this mix. We are talking about one law within the whole of the Torah that if one was to keep the “judgments” of would take what posionshady has already stated. The sons of Elohim do obey the Torah law on homosexuality by abstaining from such abominations but the “judgment” for such an act at this point and time cannot be carried out righteously. Now all that being said I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not jewish as a boy might be girlish or a girl might be boyish. I do not accept the man made religion of judaism. I follow only the words that are written by Moshe that where uttered unto him at Sinai. What and how judaism looks and observes things is of no consequence to me. But what is of consequence is the Torah in all its simplicity. You either make the conscience choice to obey it or you don’t. If we had those things established at this time in the land that Yah put his name then those that are found guilty of and in transgression of the law on homosexuality, and continue to practice that iniquity, would then be put to death. And this Theocracy is going to be established in the future. All will be made to bend their knee to Yah and those who do not, death awaits. :thud:

The things I said, about court proceedings and due process, come from the Talmud... that which you reject because you call it manmade. Therefore I'm surprised you agree with me at all, so much as to refer to "that which Poisonshady has already stated".

I'm surprised you're not sitting here agreeing with Tom.

You say you follow only the words that are written by Moshe that where uttered unto him at Sinai.

Why not the words that were uttered unto Moshe at Sinai but not written, until it eventually became necessary to write it down to prevent it from being forgotten?

 

[gwk230]

The things I said, about court proceedings and due process, come from the Talmud... that which you reject because you call it manmade. Therefore I'm surprised you agree with me at all, so much as to refer to "that which Poisonshady has already stated".

I'm surprised you're not sitting here agreeing with Tom.

Just because some poor snob decided to write something down that is in the Torah and call it talmud is nothing to me. If anything it might be construed as plagiarism. :sarcastic

You say you follow only the words that are written by Moshe that where uttered unto him at Sinai.

Why not the words that were uttered unto Moshe at Sinai but not written, until it eventually became necessary to write it down to prevent it from being forgotten?

If Moshe did not write down all that Elohim had spoken unto him at Sinai then Moshe disregarded a direct order from Elohim to do so. I'm not ready, as you seem to be, to make that call.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Just because some poor snob decided to write something down that is in the Torah and call it talmud is nothing to me. If anything it might be construed as plagiarism. :sarcastic

Aside from the number of witnesses, where is the rest of what I said found in the Torah?

If Moshe did not write down all that Elohim had spoken unto him at Sinai then Moshe disregarded a direct order from Elohim to do so. I'm not ready, as you seem to be, to make that call.

I believe references to God's words being written down were specifically referring to the written Torah.... but you believe that every word of dialogue between God and Moses that occurred over a 40 year period was written down in a book whose page numbers are less than that of a harry potter novel?

Do you believe, for example, that God left it to Moses' best judgment to figure out what a hadar tree was, and how to use it's fruit to praise God on the holy days of Sukkot? Or do you suppose it's possible, Moses asked God "What is a hadar tree?" and God told him, and that's how Israel was able to know that the fruit is an etrog (citron)?

Or do you suppose the fruit of any tree that any person could consider beautiful (hadar) is what God meant, and therefore the observance of sukkot from one family to another should be with different fruit, according to each family's personal prefence regarding the aesthetic qualities of a tree?

 

[gwk230]

Aside from the number of witnesses, where is the rest of what I said found in the Torah?

　
Deu 17:8-11 is a good one.
　

I believe references to God's words being written down were specifically referring to the written Torah.... but you believe that every word of dialogue between God and Moses that occurred over a 40 year period was written down in a book whose page numbers are less than that of a harry potter novel?

　
I believe exactly what is written in Torah. If it is said that all was to be written down then so be it. I believe that only that which Elohim told to Moshe to write down is that which he wrote down and the rest was inconsequential.
　

Do you believe, for example, that God left it to Moses' best judgment to figure out what a hadar tree was, and how to use it's fruit to praise God on the holy days of Sukkot? Or do you suppose it's possible, Moses asked God "What is a hadar tree?" and God told him, and that's how Israel was able to know that the fruit is an etrog (citron)?

Or do you suppose the fruit of any tree that any person could consider beautiful (hadar) is what God meant, and therefore the observance of sukkot from one family to another should be with different fruit, according to each family's personal prefence regarding the aesthetic qualities of a tree?

　
Lev 23:40 You shall take on the first day the fruit of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before YAH your Elohim seven days.
　
Now we have the place where it is told what is to be used to build the “sukkot” with. It says to take the fruit of goodly tress. This may confuse many being that most will only understand the word fruit meaning that which is edible but the word “peree” can mean anything that comes from the root or the trunk of a tree as an offspring. Also the word “Hader” means “magnificent” so a large tree. The next part of the verse further explains that the fruit of said tree is the branches and the boughs. It states specifically of the palm tree and thick trees as well as the willow of the brook. These items one must use to build their sukkot to live in for seven days. Anything else is pure conjecture.

 

[Poisonshady313]

　
Deu 17:8-11 is a good one.
　

　
I believe exactly what is written in Torah. If it is said that all was to be written down then so be it. I believe that only that which Elohim told to Moshe to write down is that which he wrote down and the rest was inconsequential.

You saw it here, folks. Gwk says God's word is inconsequential, unless it was written down.
　

These items one must use to build their sukkot to live in for seven days.

This is not written anywhere. I didn't see the word "build" in that verse... did you?

Looks like you're the one conjecturing here.

 

[gwk230]

You saw it here, folks. Gwk says God's word is inconsequential, unless it was written down.

　
Only that Elohim thought it not of any consequence where it need be written down. It may have been only for the purpose of Moshe and not for anyone else. This statement was only if there was more spoken than was written down which I am sure that there wasn‘t. All we have is what is written and I haven’t a problem with that. It gives us all we need to know with what our purpose is and how we are to perform this which we call life.
　
Oh, and for the record, my understanding of my deity greatly differs from that of yours. We worship two different El’s. I do not accept judaism. For the most part, to me, it is false and made up. Man made religion. See I am not arguing that you are wrong as far as judaism is concerned, I am arguing that you are wrong as far as the Tanach is concerned.
　

This is not written anywhere. I didn't see the word "build" in that verse... did you?
Looks like you're the one conjecturing here.

　
I see in 23:43 that it was already a given that they had already lived in sukkots when he brought them out of the land of Mitsrayim. They seem to have already had a foreknowledge as to how to build a sukkot. How is a sukkot made without building it? Anyway this etrog citrus fruit is fairly a new concept that was only really entered somewhere around the 1100-1200 ce.

 

[tomasortega]

YOU may be that simple... but this matter is not that simple.

No. I don't kill gay people. Why? Because there is no venue for bringing a capital charge against them, therefore I have no authority to do so.

Therefore i succeed in both following God's command AND not killing gay people.

no, this matter is very simple, you just want to cloud things over as much as possible to make it seem difficult and complex in hopes of hiding the actual simplicity and people getting lost in the confusion and not questioning.

when a judge ORDERS you to pay a fine, you either pay the fine, or you dont, there is no third option. now, in the same way to a much higher degree, god is the supreme judge of the universe, when he orders to kill homosexuals, you either do it, or you do not do it. and order is an order, a command is a command, not a suggestion to consider. simple as that

now we agree that at one point in time the jewish community actively practiced/applied these commandments, we also agree that today's jewish community does not practice/apply these commandments anylonger, meaning that these god given commandments are no longer in use, aka obsolete.

the reason why these commandments are not practiced anylonger is a completely separate topic. first we need to level on the fact that many, if not all of the commandments are OBSOLETE.

 

[gwk230]

no, this matter is very simple, you just want to cloud things over as much as possible to make it seem difficult and complex in hopes of hiding the actual simplicity and people getting lost in the confusion and not questioning.

when a judge ORDERS you to pay a fine, you either pay the fine, or you dont, there is no third option. now, in the same way to a much higher degree, god is the supreme judge of the universe, when he orders to kill homosexuals, you either do it, or you do not do it. and order is an order, a command is a command, not a suggestion to consider. simple as that

now we agree that at one point in time the jewish community actively practiced/applied these commandments, we also agree that today's jewish community does not practice/apply these commandments anylonger, meaning that these god given commandments are no longer in use, aka obsolete.

the reason why these commandments are not practiced anylonger is a completely separate topic. first we need to level on the fact that many, if not all of the commandments are OBSOLETE.

You know, you might have something here.

The only problem I see with this is that you state that the Torah is obselete. I say it isn't obselete but rather the people through their own thoughts and feelings have made it obselete to themselves. :yes:

 

[tomasortega]

You know, you might have something here.

The only problem I see with this is that you state that the Torah is obselete. I say it isn't obselete but rather the people through their own thoughts and feelings have made it obselete to themselves. :yes:

two points here:

1 ASSUMING THE TORAH ITSELF IS FLAWLESS, who was the torah intended for?? god?, animals,? aliens? of course not, it was made and intended for the people right? so if the torah is useless/obsolete to the people. its obsolete period. because there is no other use for it. if i use a regular antiseptic vinyl glove to pull the turkey out of the oven, the glove is useless to me and i will burn my hand not because the glove itself is imperfect, but because it was not intended for heat. so just like the glove in this example, the commandments are obsolete/useless to us. thus making them obsolete/useless period.

2. YOU SAY THE TORAH ITSELF IS NOT OBSOLETE. how so?? you dont thing murdering homosexuals for the crime of their very existence is wrong? if god doesnt want homosexuality then how come he lets people be born with hormonal imbalances? some are born neither male nor female. some are born both male and female. and the animal kingdom is mostly bisexual. how does that make any sense? what about the other examples ive listed earlier, you dont see any problems with them? its rather obvious that the commandments themselfes were written by mere humans limited to the thinking and influences of their own time and society.

 

[Poisonshady313]

no, this matter is very simple, you just want to cloud things over as much as possible to make it seem difficult and complex in hopes of hiding the actual simplicity and people getting lost in the confusion and not questioning.

when a judge ORDERS you to pay a fine, you either pay the fine, or you dont, there is no third option. now, in the same way to a much higher degree, god is the supreme judge of the universe, when he orders to kill homosexuals, you either do it, or you do not do it. and order is an order, a command is a command, not a suggestion to consider. simple as that

now we agree that at one point in time the jewish community actively practiced/applied these commandments, we also agree that today's jewish community does not practice/apply these commandments anylonger, meaning that these god given commandments are no longer in use, aka obsolete.

the reason why these commandments are not practiced anylonger is a completely separate topic. first we need to level on the fact that many, if not all of the commandments are OBSOLETE.

13. And a man who lies with a male as one would with a woman both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon themselves.


This is not a demand that anyone capable of reading the book of Leviticus become a vigilante. There is criminal justice procedure. There is due process.

One could suggest that since it was such a complicated matter to put someone to death according to the Torah, that no homosexual was ever actually put to death because of this verse. Not because the law was obsolete or irrelevant, but because nobody was brazen enough to to such things in public, in the eyes of witnesses, so that when they were warned by these witnesses, they continued to do what they were doing.

You think you know, but you have no idea.

The only issue you can't seem to wrap your mind around is that there are many laws which can only be applied when the Temple is standing in Jerusalem... you simply figure "The Jews aren't following their laws".

You're wrong.

By not killing gay people or slaughtering lambs, we ARE following the law by not doing things outside of their appointed place (like bringing a capital trial outside of the sanhedrin, or setting up a private altar outside of the Temple.)