How much does the Christian God really love us?

[Enoughie]

Gen 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

You see, there again is another picture of God's plan for the salvation of mankind.

"I establish my covenant" is a working promise, first to the Jewish an earthly salvation, and to the believers, a covenant that is not earthly.

If the "Old" covenant was supposed to be replaced by a "New" covenant, why does Isaiah 24:5 say that covenant is forever?

"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, violated the statute, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24:5).

This not only shows that the N.T. is inconsistent with the O.T., it blatantly contradicts it.

So how can you rationalize your "understanding" that the N.T. came to "complete" the O.T.?!

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[ninerbuff]

People who are narcissistic have love only for themselves, and don't want anyone to be above them in anyway.

A person with narcissistic personality disorder:

• Reacts to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation
• Takes advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals
• Has feelings of self-importance
• Exaggerates achievements and talents
• Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love
• Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
• Requires constant attention and admiration
• Disregards the feelings of others, lacks empathy
• Has obsessive self-interest
• Pursues mainly selfish goals

How can god love us when this is how god is depicted?

 

[look3467]

you haven't read much of the OT have you?
what about the;
the midianites, amalikites, babalonians...
did god not condone genocide and slavery?>>>waitasec

The enemies of the nation of Israel were the enemies of God in this respect: as not chosen. The nation of Israel was given the burden to introduce the creator God to the world, where as the rest of the world had no clue.

So, technically, the enemies of the introduction were the non chosen. but were souls, just the same.

You see, if one can understand the workings of God, one could see that God was setting it up to where He could add degree to the separation, you know, the casting out of Adam and Eve?

The degree came in form of the Ten Commandments which were exclusively for the chosen, the nation of Israel.

So all that transpired in the OT was as a foundation to establish the introduction the redeeming factor, by that I mean, the reconciliation of mankind as a whole.

So, naturally, God had to protect His setting, His foundation from external destruction in order to come to that point in time when God would introduce Jesus as the redeemer of all mankind.

When Jesus was introduced, all remained as it was until after His death and resurrection.

At that point there ceased to be a chosen Is real and a non chosen Gentile world.

For the redeemer brought both (Israel and Gentile world) in union as one.

If so, then where are Gods enemies now?

Though still remains the human nature make up of choice, mankind is still able to create evil deeds for whatever motive, other than love, because the love of God is not in them.

Israel is still in the OT metality and have yet to see Jesus as their redeemer.

So, Israel still has its enemies , and are at odds with the world.

But the good news is, that God redeems all mankind having no enemies in His list.

The spiritual work has been completed by God, and what is left is our work.

That work is, if compassion, love is exercised by whom ever, than that is to our benefit.

The question being is, can we practice compassion whether we believe in God or not?

The answer to that is of course we can.

But where then does the ability to love come from? From a non-existent God? No! From an existing entity who enabled us to exercise love.

so you need an excuse to hate?

You mean do I need a reason to hate? Yes!

How else can your love be tested?

interesting...
what is more honorable?
to be compassionate because a deity tell you to be
or to be compassionate for compassion sake?

Because compassion is an element of of God. I believe I am using the right term "element" to denote that it is of God and not of man itself.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

People who are narcissistic have love only for themselves, and don't want anyone to be above them in anyway.

A person with narcissistic personality disorder:

• Reacts to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation
• Takes advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals
• Has feelings of self-importance
• Exaggerates achievements and talents
• Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love
• Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
• Requires constant attention and admiration
• Disregards the feelings of others, lacks empathy
• Has obsessive self-interest
• Pursues mainly selfish goals

How can god love us when this is how god is depicted?

The key word in all of that is "depicted". If God is perceived to be that, then it is seen by the eye piece of human understanding and not through the eye piece of spiritual understanding.

The things of God are not seen through the physical but through the spiritual.

So it stands that humanity can not understand the works of God if there is no faith placed in God to attain spiritual revelation.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

If the "Old" covenant was supposed to be replaced by a "New" covenant, why does Isaiah 24:5 say that covenant is forever?>>>Enoughie

As long as there is no change, the existing covenant remains as is.

If it remained as is, then salvation for mankind would never be forthcoming.

The covenant was so severe that no man could achieve its requirements except for God Himself.

Now, the covenant was not done away with, but rather was fulfilled in order to introduce a new covenant for mankind.

So how was it fulfilled if no human being could accomplish it?

Enter: The Son of God!

Only as God in human form could the letter of the law abd the covenant be fulfilled to a T.
Ref: Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

The fulfilling of all scripture, meaning the accomplishment of meeting the requirements of the first covenant, were done by God in His Son Jesus, in human form.

The new covenant is: First, vanish the old, Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Second: the mediator is, Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Third, a covenant of promise; Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

They which are called the promise applies: Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Who are they? "The whosoever will"

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

That is the promise of the New Testament.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Enoughie]

As long as there is no change, the existing covenant remains as is.

If it remained as is, then salvation for mankind would never be forthcoming.

The covenant was so severe that no man could achieve its requirements except for God Himself.

Now, the covenant was not done away with, but rather was fulfilled in order to introduce a new covenant for mankind.

How can someone, at any given moment in time, "fulfill" an eternal covenant?! This is an impossibility.

Either the covenant is eternal or it's not. The O.T. says it's eternal.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[free spirit]

look3467:

No response? http://

enoughie, post 141 deserves a response don't you think?

 

[waitasec]

The enemies of the nation of Israel were the enemies of God in this respect: as not chosen. The nation of Israel was given the burden to introduce the creator God to the world, where as the rest of the world had no clue.

So, technically, the enemies of the introduction were the non chosen. but were souls, just the same.

by your admission the god of the bible is subjected to jealousy and injustice.
i mean, if you haven't got a clue you're as good as dead or have no purpose.
strange....i thought god was a benevolent god...maybe only to his favorites, the ones that know everything about him...with out doubt

You see, if one can understand the workings of God, one could see that God was setting it up to where He could add degree to the separation, you know, the casting out of Adam and Eve?The degree came in form of the Ten Commandments which were exclusively for the chosen, the nation of Israel.

So all that transpired in the OT was as a foundation to establish the introduction the redeeming factor, by that I mean, the reconciliation of mankind as a whole.

so why did god destroy the entire plant with a flood,
it sure looks like there a few set backs in his divine plan
too many clueless people...nice.

So, naturally, God had to protect His setting, His foundation from external destruction in order to come to that point in time when God would introduce Jesus as the redeemer of all mankind.

oh yeah, he did say he wouldn't destroy the earth and it's inhabitants again.

When Jesus was introduced, all remained as it was until after His death and resurrection.

At that point there ceased to be a chosen Is real and a non chosen Gentile world.

For the redeemer brought both (Israel and Gentile world) in union as one.

well that's if you cherry pick the scriptures. you get anything you want out of any ambiguous irreconcilable superstition...

If so, then where are Gods enemies now?

well i'm one of them...

Though still remains the human nature make up of choice, mankind is still able to create evil deeds for whatever motive

here's the #1 motive...
fundamental religious terrorism

you need to give your own species a little more credit than that.
i am floored by your reasoning. how in the world can you actually assume you know anything about a god through an ancient book?
have you ever read a history book? have you ever looked at the cosmos and felt small? or do you just know everything there is to know? it seems that way because this ancient book seems to have laid out all the answers for you...
must be nice to know that you actually know everything....
:ignore:

 

[Enoughie]

We are constantly reminded by devout Christians that their God has immense love for all his creation, and that we should believe in this God.


So how much does the Christian God really love us?
Enough to will himself to us

That's not much at all. God can make millions of Jesuses popping in and out of existence, (even with greater suffering, if he so desires). He's all powerful. It shouldn't be a challenge for him at all.

We can compare the love of the Christian God to the love of a good parent. A good parent would want his children to be righteous and successful. A good parent's love for his children is unconditional.
I am a parent of 5 children I wish for them all that you say my love for them is unconditional, nevertheless somtime I do not like what they do, so like a good parent I desciplin them for their own good.

Do you tell them that if they don't do what you tell them, no matter how bizarre your request may be, that they would have the most horrible things done to them? For eternity?

Sorry to tell you, but that's not good parenting. Especially if you're the one in charge of what happens to your children if they digress.

But is the love of the Christian God unconditional? No. God's love is conditional. The New Testament tells us:
"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father" (John 16:27)
A loving father disciplins his children so they grow to be law obeing citisens with a good character.
You see Enoughie loving and believing in Jesus means to adopt his character. that is the same wish of the loving earthly father.

And if not, you would do the most horrible things to them, for eternity? Doesn't sound like a very "loving" thing to do.

In other words, the Christian God's love for us is conditional on our belief in Jesus and us obeying his orders. And if we don't believe and obey? Then the Christian God will have the most horrible things happen to us:

"Their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur" (Revelation 21:8)
If my children break the law they will have a terrible life, and they will end up in jail ( hell on earth)

Are you going to be the one to construct this jail and torture them? Or is this something that you have no control over?

Now, does God have any control over who goes to hell, and what hell is like? Again, not a very "loving" thing.

Is this how a good parent would treat his children? Would you want your child tortured for eternity if she disobeys your unreasonable demands? Of course not. A good parent would do everything in his power to help his children.

no ammount of my love will save them. for the warth of the law will have to take its course

So God has no control over the law, and its consequences? Sounds like an incompetent god to me. I don't know why would anyone believe in such god.

But does the Christian God do everything in his power to help his children? Not even close. After all, the Christian God is supposedly all-powerful. He could surely do much more to help the poor, the diseased, or the starving.
Each one of us is called to help the poor, the diseased the starving, I for one am not doing what I could, our governament spend billions in mashines to kill people and only little to help the poor, in other words is up to us to help our brothers.

So as a parent, your god basically says: "you're on your own kids, deal with all the natural catastrophes that I bring upon you, with the starvation, and disease. I'm not going to help you there."

But when it comes to torturing people for eternity, your God is more than willing to assist.

This God of yours sounds more like a psychopath, than a caring and loving father.

Would a loving parent purposefully make his children sick? The Christian God creates us sick and commands us to be well. And then, he would only grant us eternal life (something that should be incredible easy to do for an all-powerful God) on the condition that we become enslaved to him!
No he doen't want us to be slaves, he want to elevate us to his stature so we can become one with him and rule the universe

That's not what the N.T. says. It clearly says "slaves":


"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life" (Romans 6:22)

If I have eternal life I am one with God So whats wrong with that.
Remember, this is supposedly an all-powerful and loving God! Can't he grant everyone eternal life, unconditionally?!

No he cannot, or we will have a real "star-wars" in the universe

I was not aware of this "star wars syndrome." Didn't know your God is so limited in his power. I thought he was all-powerful.

So how much does the Christian God really love us? Apparently the Christian God does not really love us that much after all. His love cannot possibly be compared to the unconditional love of a parent. And he wouldn't do everything in his power to help his children. But he would do the most horrible things to children who disobey him.
No our havenly father doesn't do horrible things, however his law does; your idea is like, you break the law than you blame the governament that has made such a law

If I have no say in what the law is, then of course I'd complain and blame the government. Especially if it is a ridiculous law, such as the laws of the Christian God.

That is why people prefer to live in republics, and not in theocracies.

The Christian God does not love us like a parent loves his children, he loves us like a slave-master loves his slaves.

You have no understanding or knowlege of the unfathomable love he has for the likes of you, But in his grace all you have to do to put things right is to repent of you arrogance.

I do not accept your God, because your God seems like a sadomasochist to me. I don't equate sadomasochism with "unfathomable love." Sorry.

I also see no factual basis to the existence of your God, or any of his claims of heaven, hell, eternal life, and so on. I think life is wonderful without all this nonsense and false promises.

A true God would never do anything so "ungodly." And would never design a theology that is so wicked and unjust.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[ninerbuff]

The key word in all of that is "depicted". If God is perceived to be that, then it is seen by the eye piece of human understanding and not through the eye piece of spiritual understanding.

The things of God are not seen through the physical but through the spiritual.

So it stands that humanity can not understand the works of God if there is no faith placed in God to attain spiritual revelation.

Blessings, AJ

Lol, it's doesn't take a genius to read a book "inspired by god" to see he is narcissistic. Are you denying that the described symptoms of narcissism don't parallel what god is asking of the human race to do/be for him?
And this thing of spiritual revelation is just your way of deflecting what is being depicted.

 

[waitasec]

And this thing of spiritual revelation is just your way of deflecting what is being depicted.

activate deflector shields...
i depict reason and logic...must adjust to the spiritual boundaries of this moving target...

 

[look3467]

i wouldn't be as dismissive as that: i would rather that my fellow specie understands the Truth>>>Luminous

I agree with you! But......humanity is, that when one tries to bring light to a dark area, resistance is met.

Ref: Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

it would be a very different world if we all went around accepting everything.

It is not in accepting everything, but by being different than, in showing the spiritual nature of God.

We can not demand of anyone to believe what we want, so the fight is to enlighten, or bring to light those dark areas of mankind's ignorance of God.

It is my believe that OUR God has included humanity in the whole of ITs Judgment. Thus giving us all the opportunity to understand our agnosticism or deny it and instead choose the seemingly eternal torturous purification of Naraka.

Your belief that God had included humanity in the whole in its judgment is because as the Book of Genesis states, God made us in His image, to know both good and evil.

Therefore, that condition incurred judgment, of a penalty; being death.

That is the only way that God could subject us to a world of testing (Vanity) and allow us to be individuals in such an environment.

There is simply, to my understanding of the bible in whole, is that there is no substance by which we can pureeing ourselves to a degree acceptable unto God.

His Ten Commandments are condemnation commandments with no room for self purification.

For He states that if we even break one of them we are guilty of breaking them all, so, where then is the hope?

The hope comes in the form of a promise, but not first doing away with the condemnation of death.

We could try to extreme efforts to come to some point of righteousness, but all to no avail, since the bible also states that even a lustful thought crossing our mind is as being condemned already.

So again, what hope it there then?

The only hope is for God Himself remove the condemnation with a promise.

And that He did!

EVERY part of my life has been a blessing... there have been no tests and trials for me, other than the test of whether i would chose to lie to myself about the nature of my understanding

Then I would say, God has blessed you because of your attitude towards life, not needing a trial of your faith in life or God.

The Agnostic Spirit of Science has given great benefits to much of the unbelieving world... its granted benefits are not so personal and are far more actual, present, and non-denominational.

It is my understanding that if you can practice one of the two things, you are in compliance with God's desires.

Number one: Love God with all your heart mind and soul and Two: Love your neighbor as your self.

If you comply with the second, you comply, the first is accounted unto you. For one can not hate the one and love the other.

One can not love one neighbor and hate the other.

Love is of God and is an ingredient of our make up, whether it is recognized as such or not.

I would ask you the same question, but i would replace the word "faith" with "understanding."
For you see, faith is a useful tool to keep us firmly self-congratulating ourselves where we are, be it on ground, muck, or fire. It is not useful for anything else.

I can not see to understand this life without a supreme being, one who has created such a wondrous, awesome, complex and vastness of all there is, especially, one such as I who can reason with some intelligence to my own likings.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

How can someone, at any given moment in time, "fulfill" an eternal covenant?! This is an impossibility.

Either the covenant is eternal or it's not. The O.T. says it's eternal.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

You asked a question only the creator can fulfill!

If you believe in an eternal God, then the answer is that much simpler.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Enoughie]

You asked a question only the creator can fulfill!

If you believe in an eternal God, then the answer is that much simpler.

Yes, if you accept what the O.T. says, then you must conclude that the N.T. can only come from a different god.

Of course, I accept neither the O.T. nor N.T. as the word of God, because if God were to dictate any of these books that would make him an imperfect and incompetent God (as I explain here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/109289-question-intelligent-design.html)

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[free spirit]

That's not much at all. God can make millions of Jesuses popping in and out of existence, (even with greater suffering, if he so desires). He's all powerful. It shouldn't be a challenge for him at all.


Do you tell them that if they don't do what you tell them, no matter how bizarre your request may be, that they would have the most horrible things done to them? For eternity?

Sorry to tell you, but that's not good parenting. Especially if you're the one in charge of what happens to your children if they digress.



And if not, you would do the most horrible things to them, for eternity? Doesn't sound like a very "loving" thing to do.




Are you going to be the one to construct this jail and torture them? Or is this something that you have no control over?

Now, does God have any control over who goes to hell, and what hell is like? Again, not a very "loving" thing.


So God has no control over the law, and its consequences? Sounds like an incompetent god to me. I don't know why would anyone believe in such god.


So as a parent, your god basically says: "you're on your own kids, deal with all the natural catastrophes that I bring upon you, with the starvation, and disease. I'm not going to help you there."

But when it comes to torturing people for eternity, your God is more than willing to assist.

This God of yours sounds more like a psychopath, than a caring and loving father.


That's not what the N.T. says. It clearly says "slaves":


"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life" (Romans 6:22)



I was not aware of this "star wars syndrome." Didn't know your God is so limited in his power. I thought he was all-powerful.


If I have no say in what the law is, then of course I'd complain and blame the government. Especially if it is a ridiculous law, such as the laws of the Christian God.

That is why people prefer to live in republics, and not in theocracies.



I do not accept your God, because your God seems like a sadomasochist to me. I don't equate sadomasochism with "unfathomable love." Sorry.

I also see no factual basis to the existence of your God, or any of his claims of heaven, hell, eternal life, and so on. I think life is wonderful without all this nonsense and false promises.

A true God would never do anything so "ungodly." And would never design a theology that is so wicked and unjust.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

This may be news to you God is the law, the law is God, you better believe it and act accordigly or pay the price.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The Christian god loves me as much as I love him. We stay out of each other's way, and it works out well for both of us.

 

[Enoughie]

The Christian god loves me as much as I love him. We stay out of each other's way, and it works out well for both of us.

Yes. I also came to a similar arrangement with the Christian God. I don't tell him what to do, and he doesn't tell me what to do.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Enoughie]

This may be news to you God is the law, the law is God, you better believe it and act accordigly or pay the price.

I understand that this blanket statement is a reflection of your inability to intelligently respond to any of the points I brought up. That's fine with me.

I have no problem with seeing God as the Law - the Laws of Nature. These Laws can also include natural values such as honesty, generosity, freedom, and equality. I discuss these values here: Natural Philosophy of Life

I have no problem with seeing God as these Laws. But these Laws have nothing to do with the Biblical God (which is a man-made fictional character), or with the fictitious dimensions that were made up in the New Testament (heaven, eternal life, Trinity, Covenant with God, etc.), or the laws of the Old Testament. All these have nothing to do with nature and its laws.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[waitasec]

This may be news to you God is the law, the law is God, you better believe it and act accordigly or pay the price.

:biglaugh:
wow...the audacity of making such a statement is absolutely hysterical

i'm so tempted to use that as my signature....

 

[free spirit]

:biglaugh:
wow...the audacity of making such a statement is absolutely hysterical

i'm so tempted to use that as my signature....

I am glad you are amused.