How should the Christian Church treat homosexuals?

[yourgraceisenough]

Then obviously God doesn't hold much opinion on my choice to marry a carrot.

Does it say anything about cannibalizing your spouse? No reason in particular...:drool:

it does say you are not condemned by what you eat and drink but by what comes out of your mouth...
So as long as you don't throw her back up you are probably fine...

 

[9Westy9]

Romans 7

4 So, my brothers, YOU also were made dead to the Law through the body of the Christ, that YOU might become another’s, the one’s who was raised up from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in accord with the flesh, the sinful passions that were excited by the Law were at work in our members that we should bring forth fruit to death. 6 But now we have been discharged from the Law, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast, that we might be slaves in a new sense by the spirit, and not in the old sense by the written code.

That says all the law. yourgraceisenough still seems to think that some still apply

 

[waitasec]

claiming homosexuality isn't a choice is the only string homosexuals have to cling to to keep their victim status, if it's true that they chose to be that way, they cannot claim to be victims of their own choice....

why would anyone want to be a victim?
why would anyone want to deliberately say, i want to persecuted and subjected to ridicule and abuse?
who's abusing who?

yet the elusive gay gene cannot be found despite all the wanna be scientist trying so hard to find it, in fact any bodily reason is still missing....

D.F. Swaab conducted the next noteworthy experiment in 1990. This experiment became the first to document a physiological difference in the anatomical structure of a gay man's brain. Swaab found in his post-mortem examination of homosexual males' brains that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain. The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function. In the homosexual brains examined, a small portion of the hypothalamus, termed the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), was found to be twice the size of its heterosexual counterpart [2].

At the same time, another scientist, Laura S. Allen made a similar discovery in the hypothalamus as well. She found that the anterior commissure (AC) of the hypothalamus was also significantly larger in the homosexual subjects than that of the heterosexuals [2]. Both Swaab's and Allen's results became a standing ground for the biological argument on homosexuality. The very fact that the AC and the SCN are not involved in the regulation of sexual behavior makes it highly unlikely that the size differences results from differences in sexual behavior. Rather the size differences came prenatally during sexual differentiation. The size and shape of the human brain is determined biologically and is impacted minutely, if at all by behavior of any kind.

Simon LeVay conducted another experiment regarding the hypothalamus of the human brain in 1991. LeVay, like Swaab and Allen also did a post-mortem examination on human brains; however, he did his examinations on patients who had died from AIDS-related illnesses. He examined 19 declared homosexual man, with a mean age of 38.2, 16 presumed heterosexual men, with a mean age of 42.8, and 6 presumed heterosexual women, with a mean age of 41.2 [3]. LeVay discovered that within the hypothalamus, the third interstitial notch of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3) was two to three times smaller in homosexual men then in heterosexual men. The women examined also exhibited this phenomenon. LeVay concluded the "homosexual and heterosexual men differ in the central neuronal mechanisms that control sexual behavior", and like Allen and Swaab, agreed that this difference in anatomy was no product of upbringing or environment, but rather prenatal cerebral development and structural differentiation [2].

[2] “Biological Basis for Homosexuality.” Online. 8 April 2003. Available
http://www.geocities.com/southbeach/boardwalk/7151/biobasis.html

Homosexuality: Nature or Nurture in AllPsych Journal

And of course homosexuality is a sin, just the same sin as the bible states for stealing, yet for some reason gays would like special acceptions for their sin, would a kleptomaniac expect special acceptions because they cannot help themselves...

yet god condoned the beating of slaves within an inch of their lives and ok'd the selling off of their children

 

[Walkntune]

Indeed. Except for the fact that it doesn't say same sex cannot get married, which was my question, which you obviously can't provide an answer to.

To be married is to become one flesh.When a couple are joined as one flesh then new flesh can be produced.Something no other marriage will ever be equal to in the natural or spiritual realm.

 

[9Westy9]

it was a reference to the creatures that were shown in the blanket that was lowered from heaven, he was told not call things unclean that God had created...

Please provide references to scripture. Your word != to God's word.

 

[yourgraceisenough]

why would anyone want to be a victim?
why would anyone want to deliberately say, i want to persecuted and subjected to ridicule and abuse?
who's abusing who?


D.F. Swaab conducted the next noteworthy experiment in 1990. This experiment became the first to document a physiological difference in the anatomical structure of a gay man's brain. Swaab found in his post-mortem examination of homosexual males' brains that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain. The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function. In the homosexual brains examined, a small portion of the hypothalamus, termed the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), was found to be twice the size of its heterosexual counterpart [2].

At the same time, another scientist, Laura S. Allen made a similar discovery in the hypothalamus as well. She found that the anterior commissure (AC) of the hypothalamus was also significantly larger in the homosexual subjects than that of the heterosexuals [2]. Both Swaab's and Allen's results became a standing ground for the biological argument on homosexuality. The very fact that the AC and the SCN are not involved in the regulation of sexual behavior makes it highly unlikely that the size differences results from differences in sexual behavior. Rather the size differences came prenatally during sexual differentiation. The size and shape of the human brain is determined biologically and is impacted minutely, if at all by behavior of any kind.

Simon LeVay conducted another experiment regarding the hypothalamus of the human brain in 1991. LeVay, like Swaab and Allen also did a post-mortem examination on human brains; however, he did his examinations on patients who had died from AIDS-related illnesses. He examined 19 declared homosexual man, with a mean age of 38.2, 16 presumed heterosexual men, with a mean age of 42.8, and 6 presumed heterosexual women, with a mean age of 41.2 [3]. LeVay discovered that within the hypothalamus, the third interstitial notch of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3) was two to three times smaller in homosexual men then in heterosexual men. The women examined also exhibited this phenomenon. LeVay concluded the "homosexual and heterosexual men differ in the central neuronal mechanisms that control sexual behavior", and like Allen and Swaab, agreed that this difference in anatomy was no product of upbringing or environment, but rather prenatal cerebral development and structural differentiation [2].

[2] “Biological Basis for Homosexuality.” Online. 8 April 2003. Available
http://www.geocities.com/southbeach/boardwalk/7151/biobasis.html

Homosexuality: Nature or Nurture in AllPsych Journal


yet god condoned the beating of slaves within an inch of their lives and ok'd the selling off of their children

they would want victim status as it takes away blame and allows rules for their protection...

pedophiles have no pretection and are hated and persecuted, if we found a reason for their choice would it become acceptable...

and before anyone says anything I am not trying to compare the two...

 

[work in progress]

a heterosexual is wired a certain way, a homosexual is wired a certain way
and a bi sexual is wired a certain way...

And, from the evidence presented by people who actually study these things to get real answers, our sexual preferences fall in a spectrum that ranges from dedicated heterosexual attraction through stages of bisexual attractions to exclusive homosexual attraction. Condemning one particular group because of their attractions is totally unjust and should be common sense...but the hyper-religious fundamentalists are too afraid to use that function and prefer to shut off their brains and risk having the reality they created (or was created for them) fall apart.

I can't possibly keep up with every page on this thread, but I noticed at least one speculating about the motives behind the crusaders against homosexuality....mostly that they must be gay themselves to explain the obsession to stay at a keyboard 24/7 over this issue. I'm thinking something similar when I come across these Fred Phelps types. But, if they are so obsessed with SIN, that would mean even a fleeting bisexual thought would endanger their everlasting souls....so gays end up being persecuted because of the transference of some zealous fundamentalist's fears to an outsider representing that fear.

If we expand beyond this issue, I don't think the Bible has anything to offer regarding sex and sexuality. There are some issues where I think the Bible has good advice, but sex isn't one of them.

The OT books were written by men who felt that women were the property of free men, so a man's daughters had little value aside from how much they could be sold for when married....doesn't anybody ever wonder where the term "bride price" comes from?

And when we get to the NT, it is pretty much the anti-sex league...any kind of sex really! Paul wants everyone to be celibate, even married couples, but makes the concession that "it is better to marry than to burn" if they can't control themselves...leaving the obvious message that Christians who can abstain from indulging their occasional sexual desires are better than those who cannot. And that attitude has polluted Christian thinking on sex and gender issues ever since!

Now that the Abstinence Movement has been around and been propagated in schools for awhile, the net results are that most young Christians have a greater likelihood to end up with teen pregnancies and std's than their more secular counterparts who may have had a sensible sex education. And, often even those who say they are able to completely abstain through all of their teenage years - into their 20's, end up finding sex to be a disappointment when they are finally able to have it -- because it can't possibly live up to the expectations of someone living in denial all their lives!

i'm right handed...is there a right handed gene...? it used to be considered to be sinful to be left handed. and this notion that homosexuality is a sin is just as ridiculous as that. and nothing more than a holier than thou justification for bigotry and intolerance of others in a mob mentality.

That's the best way I can relate to this issue. Some idiot stated earlier something to the effect that it's not a sin to be gay as long as you don't act on it...which is wrong according to scripture, because the NT makes it clear in several places that having a sinful thought is the same thing as acting on that sin, but regardless....if I run with that idea, I don't have to write left-handed, throw with my left hand or kick a ball with my left foot (for most left-handers it is a complete side preference)but I do because I discovered at a very early age that I was better doing things with my left hand than my right. Actually, I am just lucky that I entered school at a time when left-handedness was being accepted. I have an older brother, who is five years older than me and also left-handed, but when he started school, the teacher would hit him over the back of the hand for using his left, rather than right hand. He ended up with coordination problems ever afterwards and was poor at just about every sport or game he tried. I suspect something similar with the "ex-gays" who seem to be trying to hard to appear normal.

if homosexuality is a choice then you would also have to say that
you choose to think who is attractive to you in very general terms...male or female...
and that everyone is born bisexual.

Maybe because it's been mostly men writing all the posts on this thread, once again it has been ignored totally how men and women deal with sexuality. There seems to be a higher % of women who are bisexual, at least at some stage in their lives, than with men. I think for men, there is little to change, because our sexual responses are so highly connected with basic physical reactions -- for example, men react more quickly to a visual stimulus than women do. So, what are we to make of the growing numbers of teenage girls who identify as bi-sexual today? There are likely a lot of different reasons for saying they have some same-sex attraction, and it is likely something that may change back and forth during their lives.

The only situation I am familiar with on a personal level is a 40 something year old neighbour of mine has been living with her lesbian spouse (it's legal in Canada) for the last five or six years, and raising their children together which they had from their previous marriages (to men). The children seem to be doing fine, and this woman told me that she had strong feelings for a girlfriend way back in her early teen years, but had put it completely out of her mind through all the years of dating boys, and later getting married. But, for some reason, after her husband's infidelity and breakdown of her marriage, she started dating again, and without realizing what was happening, started having strong feelings for her divorced friend who was also going through the same change in feelings, and apparently in sexual interests. I can't say this sort of thing never happens among men, but I am sure it would be extremely uncommon.

 

[yourgraceisenough]

Please provide references to scripture. Your word != to God's word.

if you would care to read back I think espo quoted the actual scripture...

 

[Songbird]

To be married is to become one flesh.When a couple are joined as one flesh then new flesh can be produced.Something no other marriage will ever be equal to in the natural or spiritual realm.

What does that actually mean? Something I have trouble with is euphemisms where meaning can't be located. It's loaded with emotion or implication, but not an actual definition. For example, married people still have their own bodies, will, choices, and personalities. If something mystical happens upon marriage making them one flesh, it sure isn't enough to supersede the approximate 50% divorce rate, or high infidelity rate, or abuse, or several other things that can make marriage unhappy.

I think that phrase is best seen as symbolism of two people merging their lives together in a committed way. Giving it mystical power is up to the people involved, not an inherent factor in marriage.

 

[work in progress]

pedophiles have no pretection and are hated and persecuted, if we found a reason for their choice would it become acceptable...

and before anyone says anything I am not trying to compare the two...

Yes you are, and it is dispicable to do so, because pedophiles are made, not born that way. If you want one commonality that is described by virtually all male pedophiles, it is that they were sexually molested and/or abused when they were young. In fact, a pedophile's particular sexual interest - which can range from toddlers up to young teenagers, correlates very strongly with the age they were at when they were first introduced to sexual activity....but don't let reality get in the way of your rhetoric!

 

[yourgraceisenough]

Yes you are, and it is dispicable to do so, because pedophiles are made, not born that way. If you want one commonality that is described by virtually all male pedophiles, it is that they were sexually molested and/or abused when they were young. In fact, a pedophile's particular sexual interest - which can range from toddlers up to young teenagers, correlates very strongly with the age they were at when they were first introduced to sexual activity....but don't let reality get in the way of your rhetoric!

I said I am not comparing the two...

where is your proof pedophiles are not born that way...

 

[espo35]

a heterosexual is wired a certain way, a homosexual is wired a certain way
and a bi sexual is wired a certain way...

why don't we all have the same sense of humor?
why are we attracted to different things?

claiming homosexuals choose to be homosexuals is inferring god has nothing to do with it...which is the only string believers have to hold on to.
a string so thin that they don't even provide evidence for this claim. all they say is god created everyone the same...well obviously he didn't.
my taste buds are prone to like spicy food...while other peoples taste buds don't like it.
i'm right handed...is there a right handed gene...? it used to be considered to be sinful to be left handed. and this notion that homosexuality is a sin is just as ridiculous as that. and nothing more than a holier than thou justification for bigotry and intolerance of others in a mob mentality.
if homosexuality is a choice then you would also have to say that
you choose to think who is attractive to you in very general terms...male or female...
and that everyone is born bisexual.

The Bible makes it quite clear that homosexuality is not ok. Nor is drinking booze to excess. It could be argued (an in fact-is argued), that some people are pre-disposed to become alcoholics. Does that make it okay to be an alcoholic? Should one say- "Oh well, that's the way God made me!"?

 

[Walkntune]

What does that actually mean? Something I have trouble with is euphemisms where meaning can't be located. It's loaded with emotion or implication, but not an actual definition. For example, married people still have their own bodies, will, choices, and personalities. If something mystical happens upon marriage making them one flesh, it sure isn't enough to supersede the approximate 50% divorce rate, or high infidelity rate, or abuse, or several other things that can make marriage unhappy.

I think that phrase is best seen as symbolism of two people merging their lives together in a committed way. Giving it mystical power is up to the people involved, not an inherent factor in marriage.

Seed can only produce after its own kind.To be married and one flesh can also produce seed of its own kind.As the seed merges as one you can also see the the emerging of one from the off spring.

 

[9Westy9]

How can we explain those who switch from hetro to homo, or visa-versa.... or bi-sexuals? How can these cases NOT be a choice??

Facts About Changing Sexual Orientation enjoy

 

[waitasec]

they would want victim status as it takes away blame and allows rules for their protection...

and what is wrong with protection? :areyoucra

pedophiles have no pretection and are hated and persecuted, if we found a reason for their choice would it become acceptable...

lets think about this...
we have 2 concenting adults verses an innocent child who is being subjected by an adult...maybe that is why it is not acceptable

and before anyone says anything I am not trying to compare the two...

then why did you bringing up pedophiles?

 

[9Westy9]

if you would care to read back I think espo quoted the actual scripture...

Indeed he did and after reading it in context I believe it is referring to Jews and Gentiles

The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the believers from Joppa went along. 24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”

The vision was a pre-message to Peter to not be afraid to enter the house of the gentiles.

 

[Fester]

I'm afraid it is not mu judgement it is God's...

do you actually believe a murderer could come to accept Jesus and continue murdering...

It is you making the judgement.

Gay =/= murderer.

 

[yourgraceisenough]

and what is wrong with protection? :areyoucra

nothing but would they get that protection if they did in fact just chose to be that way...


lets think about this...
we have 2 concenting adults verses an innocent child who is being subjected to someone...maybe that is why it is not acceptable

but if they cannot help themselves, should they be judged...




then why did you bringing up pedophiles?

just an example really...

 

[yourgraceisenough]

It is you making the judgement.

Gay =/= murderer.

absolutely not..just that to God sin is sin is sin...

 

[waitasec]

I can't possibly keep up with every page on this thread, but I noticed at least one speculating about the motives behind the crusaders against homosexuality....mostly that they must be gay themselves to explain the obsession to stay at a keyboard 24/7 over this issue. I'm thinking something similar when I come across these Fred Phelps types. But, if they are so obsessed with SIN, that would mean even a fleeting bisexual thought would endanger their everlasting souls....so gays end up being persecuted because of the transference of some zealous fundamentalist's fears to an outsider representing that fear.

excellent point.