A huge gap between rich and poor is dangerous to the freedom and liberty of most people.
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How Should the Wealth be Redistributed?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
A huge gap between rich and poor is dangerous to the freedom and liberty of most people.
Heneni
Miss Independent
Freedom from debt is liberating as well. Though the ability to get credit could be considered to be a freedom which puts many people in a situation where ultimately they will feel they are less free.
How do you see the gap between the rich and the poor narrowing?
Heneni
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
What a silly question. Of course we do, Voice.
Alceste
Vagabond
You could wipe it out in a generation by repealing special laws for private corporations, capping personal profit for everybody somewhere between "stinking rich" (say a million a year) and "preposterously rich" (like a hundred million a year) and spending the excess on free housing, schooling, medicine, water, culture and food for everyone living below the poverty line.
Realistically though, since the rich wield all the political clout, the closest we will get to a measure like that is a few tentative ethical obligations on corporations, a progressive tax rate with no "loopholes" and investment in low-income housing and scholarships for the poor.
Next problem?
want to be hindu
Member
I agree.
Heneni
Miss Independent
You could wipe it out in a generation by repealing special laws for private corporations, capping personal profit for everybody somewhere between "stinking rich" (say a million a year) and "preposterously rich" (like a hundred million a year) and spending the excess on free housing, schooling, medicine, water, culture and food for everyone living below the poverty line.
Realistically though, since the rich wield all the political clout, the closest we will get to a measure like that is a few tentative ethical obligations on corporations, a progressive tax rate with no "loopholes" and investment in low-income housing and scholarships for the poor.
Next problem?
I'll have to take a few tips from pinky and the brain then...what are we going to do tomorrow brain...same we try to do everyday pinky...try and take over the world.
NEXT PROBLEM?
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
Next problem?
How do you stop the people who control the government?
blackout
Violet.
I just read this whole thread in one sitting,
and I agree with Phil.
What is "fair" anyway?
Though it would be "fair" to raise questions of decency and absurdity
when trying to figure out how to keep our country from becoming
a two class "caste".
Once the middle class disappears it is such a longshot jump over the gap
so as to be almost an impossibilty for any individual ....
or individual family living in lack.
I PERSONALLY see the biggest problem of (lack of) empowerment to be
that people have been trained, by our very way of life,
to isolate themselves (economically) from one another.
Neighbors, friends, colleagues, hobbiests never get together...
pool their talents, and abilities and figure out
how they can combine their gifts, strengths
AND FUNDS...
to create something BIGGER...
by working it all together.
The crime families certainly know this is necessary
to build anything big.
How do you think Vegas was built?
Crime families from different cities
POOLED together.... worked it together.
But here we all sit...
a bunch of unempowered schmucks
never throwing down a rope
to lift the other one up...
never working together...
and never realizing anything big FOR OURSELVES as a result.
And so how many gifted and talented people go down
in their isolated lack. And their gifts to society with them.
Perhaps if we all got smart,
and started banding together,
we would beat them (the rule makers/money makers)
at their own monopoly game.
and I agree with Phil.
What is "fair" anyway?
Though it would be "fair" to raise questions of decency and absurdity
when trying to figure out how to keep our country from becoming
a two class "caste".
Once the middle class disappears it is such a longshot jump over the gap
so as to be almost an impossibilty for any individual ....
or individual family living in lack.
I PERSONALLY see the biggest problem of (lack of) empowerment to be
that people have been trained, by our very way of life,
to isolate themselves (economically) from one another.
Neighbors, friends, colleagues, hobbiests never get together...
pool their talents, and abilities and figure out
how they can combine their gifts, strengths
AND FUNDS...
to create something BIGGER...
by working it all together.
The crime families certainly know this is necessary
to build anything big.
How do you think Vegas was built?
Crime families from different cities
POOLED together.... worked it together.
But here we all sit...
a bunch of unempowered schmucks
never throwing down a rope
to lift the other one up...
never working together...
and never realizing anything big FOR OURSELVES as a result.
And so how many gifted and talented people go down
in their isolated lack. And their gifts to society with them.
Perhaps if we all got smart,
and started banding together,
we would beat them (the rule makers/money makers)
at their own monopoly game.
Last edited:
Worshipper
Active Member
I don't know. I've never met anyone who felt that way. Everyone I've known who's needed Church welfare has always been very pleased with the results.
I'm sure it happens. I imagine the avenue of redress would be similar to the standard sort of appeals process in the church generally. It's a process that's basically the same as the appeals process in the courts in the U.S., only a whole lot cheaper.
Your local bishop handles welfare. He's the one you see every Sunday in church. If you're not getting satisfaction from him, I imagine you'd go to his superior (your stake president), and then on up the line as you felt it was needed. Eventually, you will hit a court of final appeal, as it were, just as you would in the governmental program. At that point, if you can't get what you want, it's in God's hands.
That's actually reinforced quite a bit from a story in the Book of Mormon.
An ancient missionary named Ammon goes out to preach the word of God to a foreign nation, but when he gets there, instead of preaching, he takes a job as a servant to the king. He does his job well; the king asks him how he can do his job so well; he credits his faith in Christ. So the king asks him about Christ and the rest is history, as they say.
Meanwhile, Ammon's brother, Aaron goes out and preaches to other people in the same nation (it's a different kingdom within the same empire). The king there objects to the preaching, puts Aaron in prison, and schedules his execution.
We try to take that lesson to heart. Not all of us succeed in that, of course, but we try.
I'd love to see that, too. I really can't picture a bishop sitting by idly while one of his members gets ruined financially by healthcare costs (well, I can I've met one or two lazyish bishops), but I don't know how much he could do, either. I have definitely been in wards where special collections were taken among the local members to help in situations like that, but that can only do so much as a general approach to the problem in a poor area, the local members can't do a lot to help.
Well, okay, but you're getting a little too hung up on throwing out the history to have read my post. My post was directly relevant to your concerns regardless of class history or of how we label the various classes.
Good quote! It is important to notice, I think, that he's talking about a wealth tax here and not an income tax. Wealth taxes are a lot more reasonable than income taxes you punish hoarding rather than punishing production. The one stimulates the economy, the other stifles it.
In fact, because of the historical meaning of the word 'property', it's likely that this is referring only to a land tax, which is much more reasonable from a philosophical viewpoint.
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
Worshipper -
There are some nice advantages to the system that the Mormon church has set up, to help its members in need.
It is better than any other church that I know of, but here is an interesting point of view on the system. In this instance, the church has effectively set itself up as a miniature government, collecting taxes (although, in this case, they are voluntarily paid in the form of tithing), and distributing the funds as it sees fit.
Now, I realize that there is a distinct difference between paying taxes and voluntarily donating to a church, but I would ask (in all sincerity) - is there not a strong peer pressure to tithe? I am not Mormon, and I have never even attended a service. I have very close family friends that are LDS, but I honestly have no idea what the church/social life is like within the church.
In this instance, the church functions just like our government, in that it cannot give to its members anything that it has not taken away prior. Well, at least our government used to work that way. With the advent of runaway deficit spending, even that is no longer true of our government.
At any rate, as I said earlier, I do see the advantages to the system your church has set up.
There are some nice advantages to the system that the Mormon church has set up, to help its members in need.
It is better than any other church that I know of, but here is an interesting point of view on the system. In this instance, the church has effectively set itself up as a miniature government, collecting taxes (although, in this case, they are voluntarily paid in the form of tithing), and distributing the funds as it sees fit.
Now, I realize that there is a distinct difference between paying taxes and voluntarily donating to a church, but I would ask (in all sincerity) - is there not a strong peer pressure to tithe? I am not Mormon, and I have never even attended a service. I have very close family friends that are LDS, but I honestly have no idea what the church/social life is like within the church.
In this instance, the church functions just like our government, in that it cannot give to its members anything that it has not taken away prior. Well, at least our government used to work that way. With the advent of runaway deficit spending, even that is no longer true of our government.
At any rate, as I said earlier, I do see the advantages to the system your church has set up.
tomspug
Absorbant
Do you see a huge gap, Sunstone? I don't. I see that there are MORE millionaires, but I see that the middle class makes up about 90% of our country's population. Does that sound like a country without freedom and liberty to you?
tomspug
Absorbant
This philosophy can just as easily be applied to business as it can be to government.
Worshipper
Active Member
There is a kind of pressure to tithe. It's not peer pressure, since the donations are done privately and only you and your bishop know if and how much you're donating. The pressure comes from the bishop. Without tithing, you aren't allowed to attend the temple. For many Mormons, that's not a real concern. For many it is. Most of Mormon worship takes place outside the temple, and a person can be a fully-functioning Mormon within the society of Mormonism without going to the temple. Most Mormons wouldn't even know if one of their fellow Mormons did or did not have a temple recommend.
But if I'm not mistaken, the money for the welfare program doesn't come from tithing at all, but from other donations. Though there is pressure to tithe, there is no real pressure to donate in any other way. They ask us to do so, but there's no checking up on whether we did and how much we donated.
To receive church welfare you do have to tithe, though, I think. Not that you have to have been paying tithing all along, but if you haven't, then you have to start when you start receiving welfare. I think. The welfare usually isn't money given to the person in need, but food, housing payments, clothing, and the like and the recipient of the welfare has to give some time (a few hours a week) working without pay in the church welfare program. But I think they also want to make sure that you are tithing any financial gains made while receiving welfare, too. Since it's 10% of your gain, if your gain is $0, your full and honest tithe is $0. That's totally acceptable.
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
Worshipper -
Thanks for the good conversation and insight.
I truly appreciate it.
Thanks for the good conversation and insight.
I truly appreciate it.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
To answer the OP, I think that "wealth redistribution" should take the form of welfare for the lower classes.
The current system is broken. Food stamps are barely adequate, but cash welfare doesn't even cover rent, and is only available to people with children anyway.
We should also fund expansion of low-income housing programs.
Also, I don't know if this qualifies as "redistribution," but I support universal healthcare with no need for insurance. Such a system would be supprted by taxes.
I don't understand the argument that wealth should be redistributed to the middle class. The middle class is, by definition, doing ok.
The current system is broken. Food stamps are barely adequate, but cash welfare doesn't even cover rent, and is only available to people with children anyway.
We should also fund expansion of low-income housing programs.
Also, I don't know if this qualifies as "redistribution," but I support universal healthcare with no need for insurance. Such a system would be supprted by taxes.
I don't understand the argument that wealth should be redistributed to the middle class. The middle class is, by definition, doing ok.
blackout
Violet.
I'm sorry Tom.
I don't understand your reply at all.
I was speaking of individuals really...
and certainly not government.
Business... only in so much as individuals
decide to empower themselves by working together.
want to be hindu
Member
I think that your care for the poor is rare today. Furbals to your caring nature. The way I would go about redistribution of the wealth since the American Public is not ready for socialism. Raise the minimum wage to a level that someone could eat and at least live in a studio apartment. Anyone who works 40 hours a week should not have to live on handouts from the state or charity.Then offset the cost of this to the economy by raising taxes on the rich. This increase of taxes can not be crushing to the rich. Folks need incentive to work. Most people want to be rich. It needs to be said that many important spiritual and philosohical figures took a dim view of wealth.This is true of Jesus ,Buddha, Gandhi and even Plato ( I think it was him ) said A man is made great not by what he has but what he could do with out.
blackout
Violet.
Many of us in the "middle class" are one paycheck away from total deconstruction.
Not so sure if hanging on by the skin of your teeth is "doing ok".
However, with that said, I agree with the rest of your post.
From the numerous stories I have heard though,
the entire (welfare) system could stand to work with individuals
with more personal flexability
and not penalize their efforts to work
by cutting off their assistance before they actually
have managed to secure a living wage.
I don't know first hand,
but from what I have heard
the welfare system sounds rather like a trap
instead of a hand up.
Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.