How the Law (doesn't really), define "gender identity"

[mikkel_the_dane]

Race, Age, the value of Money, Childhood, Adolescence, these are all social constructs. You gonna tell me most people don’t agree on these things?

Oh stop it! There has always been agreement on what makes a person homosexual, a minority, or a woman. Is there an agreement on what makes a person a Condigender? Or is it a gender or not?

I’ve done that already, and when pressed, they don’t seem to have answers.

No, when it comes to words and speech, each person does not make up their own rules; if they did words would become meaningless

Because it shouldn’t be complex.

Because if you are going to live around other people in a society, agreed upon labels and descriptions of these people are necessary in order to function as a society.

"No, when it comes to words and speech, each person does not make up their own rules; if they did words would become meaningless"

Well, it is a bit more complex than that, because if it is all group based, then you can't explain how words and grammar change over time.
There are 3 categories involved when you include humans in the universe: Objective, intersubjective and individually subjective.

Now here is how you have a life for all that is not objective. You report every morning to the group and are told what your job is, hoopies are, beliefs abd so on. In effect you are never individually subjective, but only with a hive mind.

So no, everything is not decided by the group. Some cases are based on the individual. We even have a category for that - neurodiversity.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Race, Age, the value of Money, Childhood, Adolescence, these are all social constructs. You gonna tell me most people don’t agree on these things?

So, you think that because most people agree on SOME social constructs, you think most people agreeing is a requirement for something to BE a social construct?

Oh stop it! There has always been agreement on what makes a person homosexual, a minority, or a woman.

There has not always been agreement on what those things actually meant socially, though.

Is there an agreement on what makes a person a Condigender? Or is it a gender or not?

You'd have to ask someone who uses that term. It may simply be a term that applies to a way of expressing gender that is actually common.

I’ve done that already, and when pressed, they don’t seem to have answers.

Then perhaps address your question to the people specifically claiming there are 72, rather than posters on here who aren't claiming that.

No, when it comes to words and speech, each person does not make up their own rules; if they did words would become meaningless

When it comes to social categories and how you associate with them, it absolutely does. What it means to be "male" varies greatly between individuals.

Because it shouldn’t be complex.

Too bad. It just is. The world isn't simple. Sorry that you don't like that fact, but facts don't care about your feelings.

Because if you are going to live around other people in a society, agreed upon labels and descriptions of these people are necessary in order to function as a society.

Just plain nonsense. Society is perfectly capable of functioning without enforcing labels on to people.

 

[Kfox]

Well, it is a bit more complex than that, because if it is all group based, then you can't explain how words and grammar change over time.

I disagree. Words change over time when someone uses a term usually created by a song, movie, or some type of entertainment, and the majority of society adopts this newly created term. This is different from everyone using their own language

 

[We Never Know]

"Gender Identity" (air quotes deliberate), is clearly a hot topic these days. And it's clear from many debates here on RF that there is a lot of confusion concerning how sex and gender relate to each other as concepts.

The following four (short) videos analyze how Washington state, Oregon, California, and Colorado define "gender identity" in their statutes.

As a summary, they don't really define it at all. They throw words at the problem, but in the end, no definition is forthcoming, at least in these four states. And I would suspect that it's not much better elsewhere.

It strikes me that "gender identity" has a lot of similarities with religion or other constructs of magical thinking. That's not good news in a country that purports to separate church from state

Why should the law define gender identity?
Shouldn't that be up to science?
Then legislation can either accept or reject the findings of science.

 

[icehorse]

Why should the law define gender identity?
Shouldn't that be up to science?
Then legislation can either accept or reject the findings of science.

In this age of hyper-identity politics, politicians are falling over themselves to virtue signal how much they support DEI?

 

[Kfox]

So, you think that because most people agree on SOME social constructs, you think most people agreeing is a requirement for something to BE a social construct?

I’m saying it can’t be something that varies from person to person; there has to be an agreement. Unless most people agree, I don’t think it rises to the level of qualifying to be a social construct.

There has not always been agreement on what those things actually meant socially, though.

Such as? It has always been my understanding that Homosexuality meant same sex attraction, Minority meant a group of less than 50%, and Woman meant to be an adult human female. Where has been the disagreement?

Then perhaps address your question to the people specifically claiming there are 72, rather than posters on here who aren't claiming that.

If the person I am addressing does not claim there are 72 genders, why on earth is he defending the position that there are 72 genders? And why are you asking me to try to understand his position, even if I don't agree with it?

When it comes to social categories and how you associate with them, it absolutely does. What it means to be "male" varies greatly between individuals.

Can you give an example? BTW “male” is a biological term perhaps you meant “man”.

Too bad. It just is. The world isn't simple. Sorry that you don't like that fact, but facts don't care about your feelings.

In past conversations I’ve had with people struggling to defend their gender nonsensical positions, as a last resort they throw up their hands and proclaim gender to be complicated rather than admit their position makes no sense.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I disagree. Words change over time when someone uses a term usually created by a song, movie, or some type of entertainment, and the majority of society adopts this newly created term. This is different from everyone using their own language

Well, try looking up the history of the word science or even thing.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I’m saying it can’t be something that varies from person to person; there has to be an agreement. Unless most people agree, I don’t think it rises to the level of qualifying to be a social construct.

Again, you're just repeating something that is patently false. Social constructs aren't determined by how many people agree with them. That's not a thing.

Such as?

The ways in which people identify as and with homosexuality as a social construct.

It has always been my understanding that Homosexuality meant same sex attraction,

To what degree? How attracted do you have to be to the same sex to qualify? What if your attraction is purely non-sexual? What if it's exclusively sexual and not romantic?

Minority meant a group of less than 50%,

So, any group that isn't literally the majority? By that standard, straight white men are a minority. So, why do you never hear them being referred to as such? Is it possible that the meaning of "minority" in this context is not as literal as you think it is?

and Woman meant to be an adult human female.

Still means that. Although there are plenty of societies that would suggest a woman is a person who has gone through a certain rite of passage.

Where has been the disagreement?

Lots of it.

If the person I am addressing does not claim there are 72 genders, why on earth is he defending the position that there are 72 genders?

What? I told you to ask someone who CLAIMS there are 72 genders what that means, not people who aren't claiming it.

And why are you asking me to try to understand his position, even if I don't agree with it?

Because you might understand what they refer to as 72 genders might not be what you think it is, and you might understand the position better.

Can you give an example? BTW “male” is a biological term

Nope. Not entirely. "Male" can be a more ambiguous term referring to the broader social concepts of masculinity.

In past conversations I’ve had with people struggling to defend their gender nonsensical positions, as a last resort they throw up their hands and proclaim gender to be complicated rather than admit their position makes no sense.

Because my position makes perfect sense. You're the one demanding gender be simple, and all I'm doing is pointing out that it's not. If you want gender to be simple, you're already on a losing side, because it quite evidently is not simple.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I’m saying it can’t be something that varies from person to person; there has to be an agreement. Unless most people agree, I don’t think it rises to the level of qualifying to be a social construct.
...

Problem with that is then you can't explain sub-cultures.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Problem with that is then you can't explain sub-cultures.

Or literally any non-mainstream social phenomenon.

 

[Kfox]

Again, you're just repeating something that is patently false. Social constructs aren't determined by how many people agree with them. That's not a thing.


The ways in which people identify as and with homosexuality as a social construct.


To what degree? How attracted do you have to be to the same sex to qualify? What if your attraction is purely non-sexual? What if it's exclusively sexual and not romantic?

But it's not like various people from the same culture and society use different words for same sex attraction like some people recognize homosexuality to mean same sex, while others who use another word don't use that term

So, any group that isn't literally the majority? By that standard, straight white men are a minority. So, why do you never hear them being referred to as such? Is it possible that the meaning of "minority" in this context is not as literal as you think it is?

White men are definitely not the majority in the US population; so just because you have never heard of them referred to as minority does not mean they are not

What? I told you to ask someone who CLAIMS there are 72 genders what that means, not people who aren't claiming it.

Post #179 you said
Rather than just scoffing at the idea of 72 or more genders, why not take the time to understand what people are referring to in that context and see if you can understand it, even if you don't agree?
Those were your exact words. Doesn't sound like you were suggesting I should not ask people who don't believe there are 72 different genders

Because my position makes perfect sense. You're the one demanding gender be simple, and all I'm doing is pointing out that it's not. If you want gender to be simple, you're already on a losing side, because it quite evidently is not simple.

Then explain exactly what is so complicated when it comes to Gender.

 

[McBell]

Then explain exactly what is so complicated when it comes to Gender.

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.​

For more information concerning gender please see the source page for the above:

Gender and health

Gender and health

www.who.int

 

[icehorse]

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.​

For more information concerning gender please see the source page for the above:

Gender and health

Gender and health

www.who.int

So what's the gender of a female brick layer or a male nurse?

 

[McBell]

So what's the gender of a female brick layer or a male nurse?

You will have to ask them.

 

[icehorse]

You will have to ask them.

No, you just provided a definition of gender that said it was "socially constructed". Now you're implying it's personally constructed?

 

[Kfox]

Problem with that is then you can't explain sub-cultures.

Why?

 

[McBell]

No, you just provided a definition of gender that said it was "socially constructed". Now you're implying it's personally constructed?

No, I am saying you will need to ask them where they consider themselves in the construct.

 

[Kfox]

No, I am saying you will need to ask them where they consider themselves in the construct.

If Gender is a social construct, how they personally see themselves is irrelevant; what matters is what society sees them as; hence the term social construct rather than personal construct.

 

[icehorse]

No, I am saying you will need to ask them where they consider themselves in the construct.

Oh. So it's a social construct, but every individual gets to choose their own adventure?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why?

Bevause a sub-culture is not a majority, yet they have social constructs.