How the media failed women in 2013

[Sha'irullah]

But they're still not victims, right?

This is bordering semantics. A victim of a crime and victim of societal female inequality is very different.

Are you saying that men are not raped enough so we should 'level out the field'?

Seems like dangerous thinking.

 

[Badran]

This is bordering semantics. A victim of a crime and victim of societal female inequality is very different.

Are you saying that men are not raped enough so we should 'level out the field'?

Seems like dangerous thinking.

That's the only thing that came to mind in order to address the contrasting numbers regarding rape? How about, say, aiming to reduce the number of incidents in which a female gets raped instead?

The issue is really very simple. There are causes which are making a woman in any given instance much more prone to getting raped than a man is. There are social problems responsible for that, and thus the society is responsible for it.

Similarly, a woman being met with much more resistance when it comes to climbing the ladder in certain fields, such as politics, is a social problem. Each women that has the ability and the desire to become president for example, and is being denied that because she's a woman is being victimized by society.

That doesn't mean that every member of that society is victimizing her, because there are obviously some of it fighting for that very victimization to end. But it means that there are enough people within the society, a majority, which are responsible in vastly varying degrees.

 

[Sha'irullah]

That's the only thing that came to mind in order to address the contrasting numbers regarding rape? How about, say, aiming to reduce the number of incidents in which a female gets raped instead?

The issue is really very simple. There are causes which are making a woman in any given instance much more prone to getting raped than a man is. There are social problems responsible for that, and thus the society is responsible for it.

Similarly, a woman being met with much more resistance when it comes to climbing the ladder in certain fields, such as politics, is a social problem. Each women that has the ability and the desire to become president for example, and is being denied that because she's a woman is being victimized by society.

That doesn't mean that every member of that society is victimizing her, because there are obviously some of it fighting for that very victimization to end. But it means that there are enough people within the society, a majority, which are responsible in vastly varying degrees.

Please point out to me the societal problems which causes women to be raped more and I can give you multiple examples of women being raped while jogging at the night or under similar circumstances.

There are men who are freaks and without considerations for others. There are also women who believes no such thing exists. There are also women who believe such people do exists and end up getting raped regardless.

Both circumstances are sad but it does not change the fact that a lot of issues can be prevented although there are ones that cannot be. But considering where I live alone, it is very common for the local news to provide reports of women getting raped doing a 4AM morning walk in a secluded area.

Considering that the vast majority of high ranking politicians are male, the vast majority of rapists are male along with criminals it is pretty safe to assume that men are not as trust worthy as women. In regards to sexuality, governing, and safety

 

[Badran]

Please point out to me the societal problems which causes women to be raped more and I can give you multiple examples of women being raped while jogging at the night or under similar circumstances.

There are men who are freaks and without considerations for others. There are also women who believes no such thing exists. There are also women who believe such people do exists and end up getting raped regardless.

Both circumstances are sad but it does not change the fact that a lot of issues can be prevented although there are ones that cannot be. But considering where I live alone, it is very common for the local news to provide reports of women getting raped doing a 4AM morning walk in a secluded area.

Considering that the vast majority of high ranking politicians are male, the vast majority of rapists are male along with criminals it is pretty safe to assume that men are not as trust worthy as women. In regards to sexuality, governing, and safety

On one hand, at the end of your post you're acknowledging that there is clearly an increased tendency within many males which makes them commit things like what we're talking about, rape, and do it often.

On the other hand, you've also tried to argue that the contrasting numbers can be explained by supposed irresponsibility on the part of some women. If a male goes jogging at 4 am he is incredibly less likely to get raped, whether be it by another man or a woman. This is a reality, and it means that women are targeted more, and that means you're blaming the victim by trying to attribute the contrast in numbers to supposed irresponsibility on their part instead of addressing this increased targeting in the first place. This increased targeting is the social problem, or a symptom of a larger social problem, whichever way one wants to go about describing it.

But the point is you skip that fact, that there is clearly increased aggression towards woman, and instead blame them for not restricting themselves from the same activities that can be done by a male without anyway near the same danger being present.

 

[Sha'irullah]

On one hand, at the end of your post you're acknowledging that there is clearly an increased tendency within many males which makes them commit things like what we're talking about, rape, and do it often.

On the other hand, you've also tried to argue that the contrasting numbers can be explained by supposed irresponsibility on the part of some women. If a male goes jogging at 4 am he is incredibly less likely to get raped, whether be it by another man or a woman. This is a reality, and it means that women are targeted more, and that means you're blaming the victim by trying to attribute the contrast in numbers to supposed irresponsibility on their part instead of addressing this increased targeting in the first place. This increased targeting is the social problem, or a symptom of a larger social problem, whichever way one wants to go about describing it.

But the point is you skip that fact, that there is clearly increased aggression towards woman, and instead blame them for not restricting themselves from the same activities that can be done by a male without anyway near the same danger being present.

I never claimed that I have a solution to prevent all forms of rape in regards to female. There are precautions but at the same time they are sort of restrictive.
Hello, if you took every precautionary advice and practiced it, America would end up like Saudi Arabia. I like many others would assuredly despise that outcome although I am sure we would all like the oil money .

As for male aggression, males are biologically more aggressive than females. This is essentially a fact but I have not the slightest clue of how to conform this into a society without it being destructive. I am a pessimist so usually I do not have answers for such things.

 

[Badran]

I never claimed that I have a solution to prevent all forms of rape in regards to female. There are precautions but at the same time they are sort of restrictive.
Hello, if you took every precautionary advice and practiced it, America would end up like Saudi Arabia. I like many others would assuredly despise that outcome although I am sure we would all like the oil money .

As for male aggression, males are biologically more aggressive than females. This is essentially a fact but I have not the slightest clue of how to conform this into a society without it being destructive. I am a pessimist so usually I do not have answers for such things.

I understand and i don't either.

But it certainly doesn't help if one undermines or outright argues against the notion that women are not treated fairly or are being victimized.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I am referring to idiocy of either sex that does not harm the opposite sex. Technically I did express myself wrong though as it is best to address issues that are in the way of oneself but ignore trivial matters.

Issues like rape, unequal pay, and suppression of female acceptance into politics are issues which are not to be ignored.

Yet you called women "petty" in an earlier post. One has to wonder what your idea of addressing those issues is like when you've already dismissed an entire gender from the get-go.

How do you think society should deal with the issues you mentioned above? Is it your opinion that women are entirely to blame for the existence of said issues, or are there deeper problems with sexism that aren't their responsibility and are indicative of a generally sexist society?

 

[dawny0826]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NswJ4kO9uHc&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNswJ4kO9uHc

Thought I'd share this video here, instead of the Feminist Only forum since I'd like to open up the debate with members who don't identify as feminists as well.

Do you agree with the argument this video offers? That the media has failed to fairly represent women and women's issues?

We have a long struggle ahead of us. We're not going to change the mindset of everyone.

I look at these commercials, where you have the woman in a bikini, depicting specific stereotypes which can be problematic.

She's part of the problem too. Until women refuse to allow themselves to be placed in stereotypical boxes - women will continue to hurt our efforts to obtain equality.

 

[bobhikes]

We have a long struggle ahead of us. We're not going to change the mindset of everyone.

I look at these commercials, where you have the woman in a bikini, depicting specific stereotypes which can be problematic.

She's part of the problem too. Until women refuse to allow themselves to be placed in stereotypical boxes - women will continue to hurt our efforts to obtain equality.

You only have to change your mindset. Equality can not be given you are nobodys equal but your identity is as important as everyone else's. You can get respect of identity if you respect your identity.

In other words don't compare yourself to others and be satisfied with yourself.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Yet you called women "petty" in an earlier post. One has to wonder what your idea of addressing those issues is like when you've already dismissed an entire gender from the get-go.

I never dismissed an entire gender. You are also over inflating what I said earlier.

How do you think society should deal with the issues you mentioned above?

I never claimed to have answers for matters such as that, I said this before.

Is it your opinion that women are entirely to blame for the existence of said issues, or are there deeper problems with sexism that aren't their responsibility and are indicative of a generally sexist society?

No and no, I specifically said that our society is sexist against both genders along with both genders having faults stemming from this.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I understand and i don't either.

But it certainly doesn't help if one undermines or outright argues against the notion that women are not treated fairly or are being victimized.

I never claimed that women are not being treated fairly but women are not victimized in America mostly. Victimization stems from not being able to act upon an ill-doing. If you say that women are victims them you are also saying women are weak and thus incapable(perpetually or circumstantial) to act.

You are hypocritically accusing me of things in which you said, this is pretty ironic. When you say that women are victims this is more than using the word victim in the judicial or colloquial sense. You are blanketing all women as being inept to defend themselves, indeed this is true in many countries it is not true in the slightest bit in America.

 

[Badran]

I never claimed that women are not being treated fairly but women are not victimized in America mostly. Victimization stems from not being able to act upon an ill-doing. If you say that women are victims them you are also saying women are weak and thus incapable(perpetually or circumstantial) to act.

Of course, that's not what i'm saying. Granting that definition, if someone kills you in your sleep that's not because you're incapable of defending yourself, it's because you were disadvantaged at that position.

When ten guys gang up on a person and beat him/her up it's not because they're incapable of defending themselves but because they were disadvantaged. We have abilities and we have limits. Life's not fair, but not all unfairness in it is by default or necessity. We inflict some of it, we can change that, as has already occurred in many regards.

If women were incapable they wouldn't have come all this way. The question then becomes where the disadvantage comes from. The easiest way for me to put it (and it is possibly too simplistic) is that it's coming from there being a collective force aggressing on them and having aggressed on them long ago, when they were not necessarily prepared.

Once women organized a collective force of their own to fight back, the results have been changing ever since.

You are hypocritically accusing me of things in which you said, this is pretty ironic.

I usually respond to such accusation as thoroughly as i can but then i don't think you really meant it.

When you say that women are victims this is more than using the word victim in the judicial or colloquial sense. You are blanketing all women as being inept to defend themselves, indeed this is true in many countries it is not true in the slightest bit in America.

I've addressed one part of that above, that leaves two. One, no, not every single woman is victimized in the sense we're addressing here. In a progressive society today, things are not severe as they are in others. So the chances of women not being victimized is higher. Yet many are, just going by some of the examples you provided yourself.

And they are in a way that is not occurring to the other gender nearly as much, if at all. So the collective descriptor is appropriate. Much like saying that a certain minority is victimized not meaning that none of that minority has ever lived without being so.

Two, as for it not being true in America, again, using your examples, this is clearly not the case. It surely is much better for women than other places, but it's not nearly the best, and, still contains many issues to be addressed. Issues such the examples you provided, in which women are harmed simply for being women, and in a way that they could not help.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

So I just had a thought Mystic, there are all sorts of women in this world and in the United States, so I think it's fair to say that representing women "accurately" doesn't really exist, but women can be represented fairly and in a varity of roles like white men are.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So I just had a thought Mystic, there are all sorts of women in this world and in the United States, so I think it's fair to say that representing women "accurately" doesn't really exist, but women can be represented fairly and in a varity of roles like white men are.

Good point.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Good point.

Also the media doesn't represent a woman as dynamic often enough. If she has several lovers for example then that defines her whole character, she can't be intellectual, be a loving mother, be influential, have complex feelings and have several lovers, she is just a cheeky minx that's it. I think that's the biggest problem.

 

[Alceste]

So I just had a thought Mystic, there are all sorts of women in this world and in the United States, so I think it's fair to say that representing women "accurately" doesn't really exist, but women can be represented fairly and in a varity of roles like white men are.

I skipped about ten pages of this thread, but it looks like I jumped in at the right time. I totally agree with this. I think l commented in another thread that whenever we flip on the Telly, we're presented with a huge variety of men - old, young, fat, thin, handsome or plain or anything in between, surrounded almost entirely by gorgeous, thin, twenty-something women. That's not fair, but it can be pretty funny once you're aware of it. You know, watching an actress go from playing leading female parts in her twenties to the "generic mom" parts in her thirties, then apparently dying for all you see of her after the wrinkles start to show. And chubby? Either watch Criminal Minds or forget about it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I skipped about ten pages of this thread, but it looks like I jumped in at the right time. I totally agree with this. I think l commented in another thread that whenever we flip on the Telly, we're presented with a huge variety of men - old, young, fat, thin, handsome or plain or anything in between, surrounded almost entirely by gorgeous, thin, twenty-something women. That's not fair, but it can be pretty funny once you're aware of it. You know, watching an actress go from playing leading female parts in her twenties to the "generic mom" parts in her thirties, then apparently dying for all you see of her after the wrinkles start to show. And chubby? Either watch Criminal Minds or forget about it.

Question, since this is a feminist topic in an open forum...
Why do you guys think that the insistence on young, attractive actresses persists?

 

[Alceste]

Question, since this is a feminist topic in an open forum...
Why do you guys think that the insistence on young, attractive actresses persists?

The entertainment industry is still largely dominated by male writers, directors, and producers, which sets a particular tone that even women in the industry tend to adapt to.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The entertainment industry is still largely dominated by male writers, directors, and producers, which sets a particular tone that even women in the industry tend to adapt to.

That was kinda my take on it, to be honest, but it's a view not particularly well-informed, so I was interested in others opinions. My supposition is that the role of male writers, directors and producers is more influential than the role of consumers, but it's a pure bald-arsed guess, I'll admit.

Related question...well, kinda related. It's just something that always bugs me. Gossip rags are generally consumed and written by women, but seem key reinforcers of stereotypes? Not for a second suggesting women can't be reinforcers of female stereotypes, I just find it harder to understand.

 

[Alceste]

That was kinda my take on it, to be honest, but it's a view not particularly well-informed, so I was interested in others opinions. My supposition is that the role of male writers, directors and producers is more influential than the role of consumers, but it's a pure bald-arsed guess, I'll admit.

Related question...well, kinda related. It's just something that always bugs me. Gossip rags are generally consumed and written by women, but seem key reinforcers of stereotypes? Not for a second suggesting women can't be reinforcers of female stereotypes, I just find it harder to understand.

Consumers are not responsible for the narrow range of women on the screen. Shows featuring realistic female characters (Orange is the New Black, or BBCs Bletchley Circle, for example) are a huge hit, there just aren't that many of them.

Yeah, there are some pretty pointless magazines for both men and women that often reinforce gender roles and stereotypes. To me, Maxim is just as bad as Cosmo. I don't know why anyone reads or writes either. The folks I know are Adbusters / National Geographic / Scientific American / Mother Jones types, so I can't speak to the mentality of gossip rag readers. Even when I'm in the mood for some extreme trash, it tends to be News of the World, and having to find out the latest on the Kardashians while I wait in line for groceries actually makes me angry. I should not have to know the first thing about these people. I shouldn't even know their names.