Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
So you are admitting that you are in error and that the story was a myth?
Finally.
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How we know that there was no Flood of Noah.
- Thread starter Subduction Zone
- Start date
Finally.
Thanks,
As you know I am a slow learner but eventually I will get it if given enough time.
Ok, I am here; go for it.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No problem. Honest questions will be answered.
Do you need some articles on how they date ice cores?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Which translation do you prefer?
ecco
Veteran Member
It doesn't?
Genesis
Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
Genesis 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Genesis 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
Genesis 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
Genesis 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Genesis 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Genesis 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
Genesis 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Genesis 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
Genesis 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
Genesis 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Genesis 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Perhaps "every" doesn't mean every.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I was waiting for him to state which translation he preferred. Perhaps he realized his error since he never told me. I have ran into too many KJV only creationists, they will totally ignore every other interpretation. And then many of them cannot even understand the KJV version. One tried to argue that the Flood was only 15 cubits deep based upon that translation. He did not understand what the word "prevail" meant in that context. How one can have a seven meter or 23 foot tall "mountain" is beyond me. Of course I did once work in one part of Minnesota where a five foot tall rise was called "the hill".
gnostic
The Lost One
People living by rivers, lakes and seas, are bound to have floods, and over time, stories will get distorted through oral traditions.
But there are no evidences to geology and to archaeology of nearly whole a single year in which every cities all around the world, were covered in water at exactly time.
And you have mentioned Euphrates.
You should understand that nearly every year in ancient times, waters of the Euphrates and Tigris will come down from mountains from the north, causing erosions and bring rich fertile soils to the river valleys, actually and naturally irrigate that lands between two major rivers, making the land suitable for crop farming.
The people living between Euphrates and Tigris, have learn since the Neolithic and into the Bronze Age, to make use of minor floods, to bring newer soil and irrigate the land.
Of course, at times they make get larger floods, that be more devastating than smaller useful flood, and that would destroy houses and their crops.
But at no point in time that a single flood destroyed all Sumerian and Semitic Akkadian civilisations on the Mesopotamia.
Yes, the Sumerians have a myth (narrated in the Eridu Genesis, and alluded in earlier Sumerian poem of Gilgamesh, eg death of Gilgames), about the deluge, with Ziusudra building a vessel, to save his family, his servants and his cattle and herds, written around 2100 BCE, but it and Old Babylonian version (Epic of Atrahasis, where the hero is named Atrahasis instead of Ziusudra, written around 1700 BCE).
The clay tablets of the Eridu Genesis are badly fragmented, some parts to the complete story are missing, but the tablets to the Epic of Atrahasis though fragmented too, but not as badly Eridu Genesis, but there are enough details in both, that they are talking about the same flood, as each other, but also to the versions recorded in the Middle Babylonian and New Babylonian (and New Assyrian) versions in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
And the Eridu Genesis allude to and the Epic of Atrahasis explicitly stated it was a river flood, not a sea or global flood, and it stated that it rained for 7 days, not the Genesis’ conflicting 40 days or 150 days of rain.
The later Epic of Gilgamesh (where the deluge hero was named Utnapishtim), differed slightlly, particularly the clay tablets found in the Library of Nineveh, dated to the 7th century BCE, still say it rained 7 days, but distorted into a sea flood of Utnapishtim, instead of river flood of Ziusudra and Atrahasis.
We know that the Hebrew Genesis copy from the epic of Gilgamesh, during the Iron Age (7th century BCE), because of the striking resemblance, regarding to releasing some birds to find dry land, and the sacrifice to the gods afterward are very similar to Noah version.
The Sumerian and Akkadian (later Babylonian and Assyrian) versions are older than Genesis version, because there are no Hebrew version in the Bronze Age. There are no Hebrew writings relating to the Genesis and Exodus existing in the 2nd millennium BCE (late Bronze Age, 1600 - 1050 BCE).
We know that Genesis 10 contains no historical values, because it stated that Egypt and Erech or Uruk don’t exist, and yet Egyptian and Sumerian civilisations predated this flood and Ham’s children and descendants (eg Nimrod).
Uruk was a rich and thriving city during the Chalcolithic period (Copper Age) of 4th millennium BCE. Uruk was so important, that archaeologists named the period between 4000 and 3100 BCE, as the Uruk Period.
The Uruk Period predated the Sumerian civilisation that started around 3100 BCE, in the Jemdet Nasr period (lasting from 3100 to 2900 BCE), whupich coincided with the start of the Bronze Age.
The Uruk Period is often referred to proto-Sumerian culture, because the first temples of An (Akkadian Anu) and Inanna (Akkadian Ishtar) were built around 3600 or 3500 BCE, and a archaic version of Sumerian cuneiform were first found inscribed at Uruk, dated to about 3300 BCE.
By 2900 BCE, Uruk was the largest city in the world.
No, the person who wrote Genesis, didn’t have strong knowledge on the history of Uruk or that of Egyptian history. There is no Nimrod, just as there are no Tower of Babel, no Noah and no Flood.
Because like pre-Sumerian Uruk, Egyptian culture predated the first Bronze Age where the 1st Dynasty, founded by Narmer. Narmer who united the two lands (2 kingdoms) of Egypt into one kingdom.
Chalcolithic Egypt exist, and some of Egyptian gods (eg Horus, Hathor, Seth, etc) predated Narmer. This Chalcolithic Egypt (4000-3100 BCE) was labelled as the Predynastic Egypt or the Proto-dynastic Egypt. Egyptian culture definitely existed in the 4th millennium BCE, and can be found in their art work and pottery style, as it showed evolution from one style to the next.
You don’t understand Egyptian and Sumerian histories, then my suggestion would be for you to do a little research on both civilisations.
I preferred archaeology over history, and archaeology and history over myth, and Noah’s Flood is a myth.
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gnostic
The Lost One
If Noah’s Flood did occur less than 4500 years ago, these fossils cannot be dated to 4500 BCE.
If you understand the natural process of fossilisation, you would know that fossils cannot be made in less than 10,000 years. These sea shells are older than 10 million years.
I have no idea how old these are, because you have provided any information other than a photo. You cannot just give a photo without providing source.
Location and who found them, and more importantly what species, can you provide actual sources or information, so that I can look it up?
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gnostic
The Lost One
Never mind, dixion.
Subduction Zone and exchemist provided me the information I needed.
Ammonite fossils.
Without that information, I don’t have clue where to search.
But as I suspected, these fossils predated any human being around, so as SZ pointed out, ammonite have been this particular fossils have been dated long before Indian tectonic colliding into the Tibetan Plateau of Asian tectonic.
Seriously, dude. I am not a biologist, geologist, palaeontologist, or Earth scientist, so you need to provide more info than photos to people. Particularly information where I can look them up.
Subduction Zone and exchemist provided me the information I needed.
Ammonite fossils.
Without that information, I don’t have clue where to search.
But as I suspected, these fossils predated any human being around, so as SZ pointed out, ammonite have been this particular fossils have been dated long before Indian tectonic colliding into the Tibetan Plateau of Asian tectonic.
Seriously, dude. I am not a biologist, geologist, palaeontologist, or Earth scientist, so you need to provide more info than photos to people. Particularly information where I can look them up.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The first source I used was flawed and slightly over rated those fossils. But that one was based upon a Google search of the image provided.
ironically even the terrible source that j. d. used put them at an age too old to be from the flood.
ironically even the terrible source that j. d. used put them at an age too old to be from the flood.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
The biblical flood story of the inundation of the known civilized world of that day around 2350 B C, predate the accounts of the Chaldean (pre-Babylonian) flood myth, as told by Berosus, an ancient Chaldean historian living in the time of Alexander the Great in the 4th century B.C.E, and that of the story recorded on the clay tablets discovered by George Smith 2,000 years after Berosus.
According to the “Report on Second Cambridge Conference,” an article by Mark Bailey Posted December 15 1997. There were major events occurring around the world at that time, floods, Meteorite strikes, presumable causing catastrophic tsunami’ etc, and the flood stories are found throughout the countries of the world. impacts from a massive disintegrating comet, which caused so many craters dated to the period c. 2300 BC, which crops up surprisingly often, in studies of dated craters, with oceanic impacts causing catastrophic tsunami.
The account of the deluge relayed in the tablets discovered by George Smith differ only very slightly from Berosus’ account, which differs only slightly from the biblical flood story as handed down through Abraham the Chaldean, even to the point where before the flood, people lived extraordinary long lives until the god/gods declared that man shall no longer live past a restricted age limit.
But like I have said before: The more that I am forced to look at the flood accounts, the more I am convinced that some catastrophic event occurred 5350-6000 years ago, which caused worldwide devastating floods and tsunamis, of which the more accurate account, can be found in the Hebrew culture that came down from the Chaldean Abraham , and his family, who have remained intact as a racial religion for some 5,000 years.
But you are entitled to believe whatsoever you choose to believe.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You do not seem to understand that the Noah's Ark myth is much younger than that. Why do you think it is older?
Also the flood myth claims the whole world, not just some small area. The Arm itself is superfluous with your version of the myth.
Nope.
You have it backwards on whom copied who.
What reputable source can you link?
A rational person cannot choose to believe.
exchemist
Veteran Member
Because what is now the Himalayas was once under the sea. The continent we now call India collided with the continent we now call Asia, closing an ancient sea that is known as Tethys and forcing up the sediments on the sea floor into mountains. The Himalayas are still rising in fact, at about 1cm/yr, so the process has not stopped.
Have you really managed to go through a school education without being taught that? How old are you?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I see that you posted this nonsense elsewhere. No one took you seriously there either:
http://www.debate.org/forums/religion/topic/124147/
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
The Anointed………The biblical account of Noahs flood in the year 2350 B C, predate the accounts of the Chaldean (pre-Babylonian) flood myth, as told by Berosus, an ancient Chaldean historian living in the time of Alexander the Great in the 4th century B.C.E, and that of the story recorded on the clay tablets discovered by George Smith 2,000 years after Berosus.
Subduction Zone wrote……. You do not seem to understand that the Noah's Ark myth is much younger than that. Why do you think it is older?
Also the flood myth claims the whole world, not just some small area. The Arm itself is superfluous with your version of the myth.
The Anointed……..The whole world according to the recorder of that flood some 4,500 years ago.
Even hundreds of years later, the daughters of Lot, who had witnessed the destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorra, the only world that they ever knew, believed that their Father was the sole surviving man upon the earth.
According to the “Report on Second Cambridge Conference,” an article by Mark Bailey Posted December 15 1997. There were major events occurring around the world at that time, floods, Meteorite strikes, presumable causing catastrophic tsunami’ etc, and the flood stories are found throughout the countries of the world. impacts from a massive disintegrating comet, which caused so many craters dated to the period c. 2300 BC, which crops up surprisingly often, in studies of dated craters, with oceanic impacts causing catastrophic tsunami.
Subduction Zone wrote…….Nope.
The Anointed………Yep!
The account of the deluge relayed in the tablets discovered by George Smith differ only very slightly from Berosus’ account, which differs only slightly from the biblical flood story as handed down through Abraham the Chaldean, even to the point where before the flood, people lived extraordinary long lives until the god/gods declared that man shall no longer live past a restricted age limit.
Subduction Zone……You have it backwards on whom copied who..
The Anointed…….Nope!
But like I have said before: The more that I am forced to look at the flood accounts, the more I am convinced that some catastrophic event occurred 5350-6000 years ago, which caused worldwide devastating floods and tsunamis, of which the more accurate account, can be found in the Hebrew culture that came down from the Chaldean Abraham , and his family, who have remained intact as a racial religion for some 5,000 years.
Subduction Zone wrote……. What reputable source can you link?
The Anointed………“Report on Second Cambridge Conference,” an article by Mark Bailey Posted December 15 1997.
But you are entitled to believe whatsoever you choose to believe.
Subduction wrote………A rational person cannot choose to believe.
The Anointed……..You had the promise of Life or death before you, but you, as a backslider, chose to abandon the faith that you once held. Does this then mean that you are an irrational person?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
TTLDR. The Noah's Ark Story is only about 2,500 years old, making it the youngest version, not the oldest.
http://qa.answers.com/Q/When_was_the_story_of_Noah's_Ark_written
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
You kid yourself sunshine. The copies of the original, which was recorded over 4,500 years ago, might be only 2,500 years old, Just as the copies of the books of Enoch, which were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls only date to the third century B C, which originals were read by the Israelites while in Egypt.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Wrong again and watch the name calling.
You can't support your ignorant claims. I can support mine. You have only a book of myths to rely on. Actual scholars can tell you when different parts of the Bible were written and how they know that.
gnostic
The Lost One
The problem when most creationists who accept the movement of tectonic plates, is that they think these continents have rocket launchers strapped to it, and on wheels, going at 100 miles per day.
Before 70 million years ago, Indian tectonic plate was going at rate of only 15 cm per year. About 50 million years ago, the ocean flood have already started to thrust faulted and folding; around this time onward, the rate of move dropped to 6 to 4.5 cm per year.