How we know that there was no Flood of Noah.

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not upset or afraid or running. I am still a member and you can get to know me apart from this bumpy start if you wish.

Then let's continue on with the scientific method. Did you see my post where I posted a flow chart for it?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sorry, that is not "physical evidence". Physical evidence is something that one can touch, feel, see etc.. It is not stories.

Those ancient Babylonian people were physical evidence because they could touch, feel, see, etc.
They physically multiplied and spread physical descendants along with their Flood stories or legends earth wide.

 

[CLee421]

Yep

 

[nPeace]

Check. I just posted a new topic in religious debates (maybe you can see if you think it fits there) still getting used to the setup on here.

Thanks.
There is a number at the bottom of each post. You can copy the link address and select your text, then select the link (chain icon above) and paste the link in there. That way, it's easier for persons to find where you point.

You'll get used to it eventually. If you need specific help, just click on the user name of one of the premium users or staff members, click their name in the box that pops us, and send them a query.

I can't help very much because I too am still getting used to the setup, which is a bit different to some other forums, I have been on.
But message me anytime you think I might be able to help out.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Those ancient Babylonian people were physical evidence because they could touch, feel, see, etc.
They physically multiplied and spread physical descendants along with their Flood stories or legends earth wide.

Nope,

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yep

No, seriously, please try to learn the definitions of terms being used.

 

[Valjean]

Multiple flood stories around the world actually are a testament that one actually happened (word of mouth to the grandkids and so on)

They are evidence that floods were common agents of cataclysm in settlements usually situated near water. They would be expected to figure widely in folklore.

The geological evidence is overwhelming. Countless creatures encased in mud and evidence shows a quick death.. now our fossils. The only thing catastrophic enough and fast enough to produce those specific results is a flood.

I agree -- the geologic evidence is overwhelming -- but it doesn't support the flood story. Yes, there are lots of fossils, but the mode of death isn't as important as what happens to the body after death -- how it's preserved, how it's fossilized. Petrifaction is a very slow process.

The 'countless creatures' are arranged in distinct, dated layers, not jumbled as if scattered by a flood.

Why don't you believe it?

Because there's overwhelming, consilient evidence from dozens of different disciplines, of gradualism. There is no evidence of a worldwide flood.

I tend to side with Jews on their knowledge of their own history book.

As do I. I didn't think most Talmudic scholars believed the flood tale anymore, or the exodus from Egypt tale, or even in the tale of Moses.
You're citing folklore, not scholarship.

 

[nPeace]

Instead of running away why not try to learn for once?

Oh, I did learn something. After 27 pages, there must be something I learned. That I won't share though.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Goo question.
Because monkeys don't become extinct. They just keep living on and on, till they could evolve, and then keep living on and on. Or maybe there were late in arriving. I'm

Oh, I did learn something. After 27 pages, there must be something I learned. That I won't share though.

You have yet to even give an honest attempt to learning.

Once again, why not learn what the scientific method is? Copy and paste only demonstrated a lack of understanding on your part.

 

[nPeace]

That comment was not aimed at you but at nPeace. Throughout this thread he has run away rather than discussing. He has refused to even discuss the scientific method. He has only been outraged when his ignorance was mentioned and then went on to confirm the claim.

I'm going, but I need to make this last comment.
You never responded to my response to your comment.
No one come do debate forums to learn. I didn't even know there were teachers on these forums, and I actually thought that was against the forum rules here. But then I find you don't seem to mind.
Bye. Enjoy you class.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm going, but I need to make this last comment.
You never responded to my response to your comment.
No one come do debate forums to learn. I didn't even know there were teachers on these forums, and I actually thought that was against the forum rules here. But them I find you don't seem to mind.
Bye. Enjoy you class.

I did too. I even quoted it when I did so which means that you got a notification.

EDIT: Here you go:

How we know that there was no Flood of Noah.

 

[gnostic]

An ice age is a period of long-term reduction in the temperature of Earth's surface and atmosphere, resulting in the presence or expansion of continental and polar ice sheets and alpine glaciers. Within a long-term ice age, individual pulses of cold climate are termed "glacial periods" (or alternatively "glacials" or "glaciations" or colloquially as "ice age"), and intermittent warm periods are called "interglacials". In the terminology of glaciology, ice age implies the presence of extensive ice sheets in both northern and southern hemispheres.[1] By this definition, we are in an interglacial period—the Holocene—of the ice age. The ice age began 2.6 million years ago at the start of the Pleistocene epoch, because the Greenland, Arctic, and Antarctic ice sheets still exist.[2]

Ice age - Wikipedia

When the ice melted the great flood began

You quoted from Wikipedia, but no where in that quote, and in the rest of the article, does it ever stated that the current interglacial period - Holocene - resulting in a global flood set in some point in the second half of 3rd millennium BCE.

The Holocene (current interglacial period) started 11,700 years ago.

That’s about 7000 years before “the supposed Flood” of Noah around 2340 to 2100 BCE (that’s depending on how you would read/interpret Exodus 12:40-41; my guess is that 430 years referred god revealing the covenant to Abraham (when he was 85 years old) in Genesis 15, just before Ishmael was born).

A 7000-year gap, it is a very long time, james, for all the ice to melt all at ice, 2340 BCE.

But you are forgetting one important thing about the Ice Age. With the Quaternary Ice Age (or the Pleistocene Glaciation), the ice sheets never covered all of Earth.

In Europe for example, the maximum extent of the last glacial period never covered places like Spanish-French peninsula, Italian peninsula, and any part of the Balkan (south of the Danube, which would include Bosnia, Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece).

In Central Europe, only the northern part of Germany was covered in ice sheets, but to the south, only because of the attitude, only a pocket of ice sheets covered most of the Alps surrounded by ice sheet-free regions.

As to the Middle East, the ice sheets never covered any part Anatolian Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran. The ice sheets did covered the Caucasus mountains, but like the Swiss Alps, the ice sheets only covered the high altitudes of the mountains in Caucasus, so it was surrounded by ice-free zones in lower lying regions. But south of the Caucasus, the Middle East was free from the ice sheets.

But getting back to my point. Since the ice sheets only covered the Caucasus, then there are not ice sheets to melt, to flood ancient civilisations of Levant, Mesopotamia and Egypt.

And in Genesis Flood, Noah supposedly landed somewhere in the Ararat, but even here, there are no evidence that the Quaternary Ice Age ever covered Ararat.

If we are to believe your claim that the melting from the Ice Age, then why would Flood occurred after 7000-year gap?

Your claim are missing some facts about the ice age.

The melting of ice sheets didn’t occur all at once. Nor is the melting ice would cause enough water to flood all the highest mountains.

There certainly wouldn’t be enough melted ice from the Caucasus to cover all of Middle East, and left Noah’s Ark somewhere stranded on a mountain top, and the highest peak (Greater Ararat) in Ararat is over 5000 metres high. There aren’t even enough ice for water to reach the peak of 3900 metres of the Lesser Ararat.

Your claims of melting ice sheets causing the Flood, is unrealistic wishful thinking.

 

[gnostic]

Your focus is on the Bronze Age... Why?

I hope you are not like some who complain about copying and pasting. I do this in order to highlight particular points I want to make - rather than linking a whole page that does not particularly reference my focus.

There were no Hebrew writing of any sort before the 10th century BCE.

The Hebrew writing system, the Hebrew alphabets didn’t exist until the 10th century BCE, and it was adopted and modified, evolving from the older Phoenician alphabets. And the Phoenicians did invent the alphabets until around 1200 BCE, so a couple before the first appearance of Hebrew alphabets.

Hebrew, like the Phoenician, was abjad, meaning vowel-less alphabets.

Before the Phoenician alphabets, the people of Levant, like that of the Mesopotamians (Babylonians and Assyrians) wrote in cuneiform, for example, the Ugaritic cuneiform from the city-state of Ugarit (now called Ras Shamra, in northwest Syria).

And before the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, the Israelites were indistinguishable from the Canaanites during the 2nd millennium BCE Bronze Age, supposedly the time of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses and Joshua, all supposedly lived in this millennium.

So yes, I do bring up the Bronze Age, because Moses, if he did exist as a historical person, would have lived in the 2nd half of 2nd millennium BCE.

I based this upon 1 Kings 6:1, 480 years. Solomon was supposedly began building the temple on 4th year of his reign, so about 967 or 966 BCE. If you do the math, then the Moses’ liberation of Israelite slaves and his departure from Egypt in Exodus 12 would have taken place about 1447 BCE.

But there are no Genesis, Exodus, Numbers and Leviticus existing in Bronze Age written in cuneiform, nor in Hebrew alphabets though much of the Iron Age until the uncovering the scroll fragments (Silver Scrolls) found in 600 BCE at the cave of Ketef Hinnom.

There are no earlier literary evidences than the Silver Scrolls.

And this tell me one of two things, either (A) Moses didn’t write the Torah or Pentateuch, or (B) Moses didn’t exist.

If (b) is true, then so is (a).

There was never any evidence that Moses ever existing, nor that there was mass migration of freed Israelites roaming the wilderness, nor any evidence of Joshua’s invasion of Canaan (after 1407 BCE).

In Joshua, it stated that Jericho was abandoned after its capture, but all evidences showed that Jericho was already abandoned before 1600 BCE, due to earthquake, not war. There were no evidences of violence and fire in Jericho that normally associated with wars and sieges, when cities were captured.

Much of the Old Testament especially those supposedly set in the Bronze Age, don’t align with archaeological evidences, or they didn’t happen at all.

 

[Valjean]

james dixon said: ↑
I believe that as the ice melted it created a lot of moisture that caused a lot of rain

But how could three times the entire water content of the planet have been produced by melting ice?

Regarding Ken Ham and his Ark Encounter ... there are some live animals there. His plan was always to create the creatures Noah had because - they would have looked different then. So you go there and you see the "first" dog that lead to all our breeds - and so on with each "kind" of animal.

But the Bible says he took every kind of creature, not just the original progenitors. You're twisting the words to fit a 'fix' manufactured in response to scientific objections.
And why would the creatures four thousand years ago have been different from today's creatures?

Are you claiming your omniscient, omnipotent God created an overly wordy, self-contradictory, ambiguous, demonstrably inaccurate book, and thought it would be universally and unquestioningly accepted? And why did He not preserve it as a primary source on some durable substrate, rather than transmitting it in fragments; copies of copies of copies, with frequent inconsistencies?
If some of the biblical claims were reported in today's papers, wouldn't you expect an immediate eruption of public skepticism? Why would you think the same wild claims, transmitted by hearsay from person to person; copies on copies, over thousands of years, would be reliable?

It's not complicated once you are able to just trust Him.

If God wanted us to believe Him because of some papers He would have done that. But not only are the books/letters and historical evidence reason enough there is much more. God wants us to have faith in Him - not in writing from ancestors alone.

Yes, with faith all things are believable, no matter how contradictory, ambiguous or demonstrably false.

So while scientist continue to debate whether man is out of Africa, or Asia, the Bible gives the true history. It seems sort of in between, doesn't it.

No, the bulk of evidence still points to an African origin.

The Bible fills in the blanks. It's not expected that every single detail in the Bible will be discovered, or excavated. That's not reasonable, is it? However, every single excavation verifies the historical accuracy of the Bible, and the Bible tells us where the civilizations originated.
So when people try to dismiss the flood as a myth, they try to dismiss history, imo.

They dismiss mythology. There is no archeological or geological evidence for the flood -- or Moses' Egyptian exodus, for that matter. Both would have left extensive evidence.

Where did Egypt come from? Where did Babylon come from?
Without the sons of Noah, you have no history. In fact that's the case right now with skeptics, isn't it? Their history has a huge gap that will never be filled, until they accept the Bible's truth, imo.

We don't need Bible stories for us to have a history. We have fossils, languages, architecture, DNA, &c, to piece together our species' history.
Origin stories are numerous and varied. The Hebrew tales are just one of them.

It's the same problem with the evolutionist scientists - huge gulfs in their mythical story. The big bang from nothing, and nowhere. Life, but no cause for it.
That truly is a marvel.

Seriously?!
Science is fact based. Any 'stories' are based on empirical evidence, not folklore.
Big Bang? What does that have to do with evolution?
Life without cause? You're confusing science with religion. Science investigates causes and mechanisms. No scientist ever proposed magic poofing.

If one reasonable accept that there is a history before the Sumerians, then they would logically ask the question, "Where did the Sumerians get the legend? Did they come up with it off the top of their heads?"

There a dozens of legends, from all over the world, some isolated, some with heavy borrowing. Floods and other tragedies happen almost everywhere.

Well maybe we should consider asking Noah's sons. The flood occurred before the Sumerians.

There you go again. What flood?
Evidence?

It's interesting though that all this is documented as history, and there are people who still try to discredit the Bible.

Yes, there were lots of kingdoms, ethnic conflicts, wars and invasions in ancient times. They were common knowledge. They could be expected to figure in stories from the time.
I don't see anything remarkable in this.

 

[CLee421]

@Valjean Ignoring snide remarks.

Every KIND. Yep. Exactly as you said. Not every variation of that kind. Not more than one kind of dog, or cat etc.

But you don't believe it so why use it to prove anything?

 

[Subduction Zone]

@Valjean Ignoring snide remarks.

Every KIND. Yep. Exactly as you said. Not every variation of that kind. Not more than one kind of dog, or cat etc.

But you don't believe it so why use it to prove anything?

Speaking of biology it refutes the flood as.well.

 

[Valjean]

Thank you for your reply. I don't disagree that Everest is millions of +years old.
I am saying the possibility about how high its height was appearing 'before' the Flood could be a factor.

You think its height has changed appreciably in just 4,000 years?

It's height has been roughly the same for throughout man's time on the Earth. It is a product of uplift and erosion so it may have even been taller in the past depending upon the rate of those forces.

I thought the Himalayas were still rising.

 

[gnostic]

Geographical locations can be traced accurately by archaeologist.

So while scientist continue to debate whether man is out of Africa, or Asia, the Bible gives the true history. It seems sort of in between, doesn't it.

They say the Sumerians were the first known civilization, and who can blame them for that, if that's all they know.

Where did they come from? They don't know. When did they first become a people? They can only speculate.
See Sumer

The Bible fills in the blanks. It's not expected that every single detail in the Bible will be discovered, or excavated. That's not reasonable, is it? However, every single excavation verifies the historical accuracy of the Bible, and the Bible tells us where the civilizations originated.
So when people try to dismiss the flood as a myth, they try to dismiss history, imo.

Where did Egypt come from? Where did Babylon come from?
Without the sons of Noah, you have no history. In fact that's the case right now with skeptics, isn't it? Their history has a huge gap that will never be filled, until they accept the Bible's truth, imo.

Lol

You really don’t have any concept of history and archaeology.

Yes, I know all about Genesis 10, Table of Nations, supposed accounted for the people that appeared after the Flood.

You brought up Egypt and the Sumer Mesopotamia not existing before the Flood, but both historical records and archaeological sites existing long before 2340 BCE.

Let focus on Egypt for now. I will get to Sumer, in my next reply.

2340 BCE, would put this in the time of the reign of Teti, from the 6th dynasty. Teti found his own dynasty, succeeded Unas of the 5th dynasty, and Teti’s own son son Pepi succeeded him.

My point is that Unas, Teti and Pepi I, all had pyramids built in Saqqara.

Had there been a real flood killing everyone in Egypt, there would be no way for Teti or his son to build their tombs, because there would be no man power to help construct them.

If we were to believe that Ham’s son Egypt or Mizraim was indeed the first Egypt, then Egypt would have to reach 20 or so before becoming adult, so how many Egyptians would need to be born before Egyptians could begin building pyramids, temples and palaces.

Teti’s Pyramid is much smaller than the Pyramid of Khufu (at Giza), the 2nd king of 4th dynasty.

If Genesis is true, then there shouldn’t be any pyramid before 2340 BCE and before Ham’s son was born or becoming adult to fathering his own children.

But Egyptian history and archaeology demonstrated that Genesis account about Egypt isn’t true.

And Khufu’s Pyramid isn’t even the oldest pyramid. Khufu’s father built 3 pyramids.

And before that at the start of the 3rd dynasty, Djoser built the first pyramid in early 27th century BCE. This first pyramid was known as the Step Pyramid, because it is not a true pyramid in shape. The Step Pyramid resembled the stairs with 6 steps.

According to Egyptian religion of Re, the sun god, kings who died can reach Re’s sun boat, to become god’s crewmen, but in order to ascend to the heaven, they must climb stairs or ladder to reach Re’s boat, hence the pyramids were meant to represent the stair or ladder.

We know this myth, because stair or ladder are mentioned in the tomb of Unas and other kings after Unas, since these late pyramids contained hieroglyphs of the afterlife for their kings, known as the Pyramid Texts.

But Egyptian history even predated Djoser of the 3rd dynasty. Egypt even predated the 1st dynasty, because the worship of Horus, Hathor, Seth, and few other deities exist in the Protodynastic or Predynastic period (4000 - 3100 BCE), when Egypt was originally divided into 2 kingdoms: Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt.

Egyptian culture can be traced to this period, found in their artefacts, and Egyptian hieroglyphs and hieratic started in 3200 BCE.

If Old Kingdom Egypt (3100 to 21st century BCE) didn’t exist before the flood in 2340 BCE, then why are there evidences of writing existing before 2340 BCE being the same writings that exist in Middle Kingdom (19th to 17th centuries BCE) and New Kingdom (mid-16th to 12th centuries BCE)?

Wouldn’t Egyptian writings be different?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You think its height has changed appreciably in just 4,000 years?

I thought the Himalayas were still rising.

They are, but they are also being eroded. Over the long term they have gone up, but that does not mean that parts may have been even higher in the past. The processes are not linear.

Sort of like the Dow Jones average.

 

[gnostic]

If all the animals survived in the Ark were at Ararat, then how did slow moving wombat and koalas reach Australia?

Neither of them are swimmers.

Say that reached south east Asia without getting killed by predators, how are there no remains of wombats and koalas existing in Asia?

It would have taken many generations and many should have died in the journey to reach south east Asia, and neither have long life span, so how could the be no trace of them in Asia?