How would you define secular Jew?

[YoursTrue]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this discussion but I'd like to hear opinions as to what is a "secular" Jew. From Jews and non-Jews if possible.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

A non-religious ethnic Jew in general. What's the issue?

 

[YoursTrue]

A non-religious ethnic Jew in general. What's the issue?

OK, what's an ethnic Jew? Obviously not someone identifying himself as an ethnic Catholic, right? I haven't heard of an ethnic Protestant or ethnic Catholic, so wondering what constitutes an ethnic "non-religious" Jew? Why associate himself with being a Jew?

 

[YoursTrue]

A non-religious ethnic Jew in general. What's the issue?

I was reading about a person who was described as an ethnic Jew but he didn't believe in God in any format, so wondering what a person might consider to be an "ethnic" Jew. Can one be an "ethnic Muslim?" lol, just wondering...I guess they can be ethnic almost anything.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I was reading about a person who was described as an ethnic Jew but he didn't believe in God in any format, so wondering what a person might consider to be an "ethnic" Jew. Can one be an "ethnic Muslim?" lol, just wondering...I guess they can be ethnic almost anything.

You seem to not understand what an ethnic group is. Do you understand how Irish and Germans are different ethnic groups but still Indo-European, as well as European as commonly understood?

 

[YoursTrue]

You seem to not understand what an ethnic group is. Do you understand how Irish and Germans are different ethnic groups but still Indo-European, as well as European as commonly understood?

I'll try. So an ethnic Jew from Russia would be a different ethnicity from someone who considers himself an ethnic Jew from Louisiana, you think possibly? A person born and raised in Ireland is ethnically Irish? He could be ethnically Irish-Jewish I suppose maybe. But if he moved to Australia would his children be "ethnically Irish," and the children born and raised in Australia, do you think the children would call themselves ethnically Irish-Jewish too?

 

[YoursTrue]

You seem to not understand what an ethnic group is. Do you understand how Irish and Germans are different ethnic groups but still Indo-European, as well as European as commonly understood?

Actually, now that I'm looking at your answer a bit more closely, does the ethnicity have anything to do with their genes and religion? Two questions there -- but anyway, maybe there are some Jews that would like to answer, I figure you're not Jewish, right? Was Frankenstein Jewish, or ethnically Jewish? I don't know maybe you do.

 

[YoursTrue]

Can one call himself a secular Christian? He can live in North Dakota US or Sweden, I suppose. And call himself perhaps a secular Christian. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???

 

[sun rise]

My parents were secular Jews. Jews by birth since their mothers were Jewish but they were also atheists

Besides the parent requirement, secular Jews have genetic markers in common and in many areas were discriminated against because the majority were antisemites. So identification as being Jewish remained strong

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this discussion but I'd like to hear opinions as to what is a "secular" Jew. From Jews and non-Jews if possible.

A non-observant Jew would be a secular Jew, IMO. Although I participate in secular society, I am still an observant Jew.

As to the question about Jewish ethnicity... Those who convert to Judaism are full Jews and it is considered to be very bad form for Jews to treat a convert as less than a full Jew. So being Jewish isn't so much a matter of ethnicity as it is being a part of an extended family.

 

[YoursTrue]

My parents were secular Jews. Jews by birth since their mothers were Jewish but they were also atheists

Besides the parent requirement, secular Jews have genetic markers in common and in many areas were discriminated against because the majority were antisemites. So identification as being Jewish remained strong

Thank you. I realize there may be genetic markers, naturally close interbreeding takes a mark. I don't want to get into this too deeply because my main concern is similar to someone saying he's Catholic but not believing what the religion teaches. So a secular Jew is someone raised in a certain maybe Jewish atmosphere (which is what, by the way? Depending maybe no Christmas tree in the house or maybe there is...) But he's.not a secular Catholic rather a secular Jew. Ok. He can be Jewish but not believe in God or Catholic and not believe in God.

 

[YoursTrue]

A non-observant Jew would be a secular Jew, IMO. Although I participate in secular society, I am still an observant Jew.

As to the question about Jewish ethnicity... Those who convert to Judaism are full Jews and it is considered to be very bad form for Jews to treat a convert as less than a full Jew. So being Jewish isn't so much a matter of ethnicity as it is being a part of an extended family.

I'm speaking only of someone claiming to be a secular Jew. Furthermore we know that some synagogues will accept and bar mitzvah a boy with a Jewish father not a Jewish mother. I wonder if a religious rabbi such as Lubovitch (spelling?) would accept him as a Jew.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

I'm speaking only of someone claiming to be a secular Jew. Furthermore we know that some synagogues will accept and bar mitzvah a boy with a Jewish father not a Jewish mother. I wonder if a religious rabbi such as Lubovitch (spelling?) would accept him as a Jew.

Reform Judaism accepts as Jewish a child born of a Jewish father but not necessarily a Jewish mother. So, no, a Lubavitcher rabbi (a member of the Haredim, which some call the "ultra-Orthodox") would not accept him as a Jew. The same would go for a rabbi of other Orthodox or Conservative branches of Judaism. I'm not very familiar with the Reconstructionist branch, but I think (don't quote me on this, please!) that they are more aligned with Reform Judaism.

I do believe that the path for conversion for a child of a Jewish father, provided that the child has been brought up in the Jewish faith by his/her father, is easier than it would be for a person choosing to convert from an outside faith. Some rabbis might treat such a required conversion as a mere formality, since obviously a lengthy period of study (which not only includes an understanding of the Jewish religion but also Jewish history) would not seem as necessary for a person who has been living a Jewish life since childhood.

It's interesting to note that Israel's first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973) argued that anyone who declared himself to be a Jew, lived a Jewish life, and was involved in the welfare of the Jewish people, was in fact a Jew. Ben-Gurion stated: "We have been Jews without definition for the last 3,000 years and we shall remain so... By one definition the Jews are a religious community... There is a definition that Jews are a nation... There are Jews without any definition. They are just Jews. I am one of them. I don't need any definition. I am what I am..."

 

[RabbiO]

@YoursTrue -

I didn’t realize until I saw your post, #12, that I am not religious. Who knew?

 

[Harel13]

OK, what's an ethnic Jew? Obviously not someone identifying himself as an ethnic Catholic, right? I haven't heard of an ethnic Protestant or ethnic Catholic, so wondering what constitutes an ethnic "non-religious" Jew? Why associate himself with being a Jew?

What an ethnic Jew is varies between Jewish denominations, but it usually means someone who was born Jewish (whatever that means varies) or converted to Judaism. As @Saint Frankenstein said, a secular Jew is a person who was born Jewish and isn't observant or converted to Judaism but later stopped being observant.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

A non-observant Jew would be a secular Jew, IMO.

Much depends on your definition of observant. So, for example:

The World Union for Progressive Judaism > About:

The World Union, established in London in 1926, is the international network of the Reform, Liberal, Progressive and Reconstructionist movements, serving an estimated 1.8 million members worldwide in more than 1,250 congregations in over 50 countries.​

Should these 1.8 million be characterized as secular?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this discussion but I'd like to hear opinions as to what is a "secular" Jew.

A Jew who does not self-identify as religious.

 

[Rival]

Much depends on your definition of observant. So, for example:

The World Union for Progressive Judaism > About:

The World Union, established in London in 1926, is the international network of the Reform, Liberal, Progressive and Reconstructionist movements, serving an estimated 1.8 million members worldwide in more than 1,250 congregations in over 50 countries.​

Should these 1.8 million be characterized as secular?

I'm interested in what it means to 'observe'.

I'm a non-Christian, but I often engage in Christian activities (going to Mass, lighting candles, own Christian prayer beads, do Lenten fasts etc.) and would be classed as more observant than many actual Christians. I find these activities 'good for the soul' as it might be, without believing in the truth of Christianity. I would hardly call myself 'observant' and especially not 'Christian'.

I think we could call these things cultural, at least, but if one isn't religious 'observant' becomes a weird word to use?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm not very familiar with the Reconstructionist branch, but I think (don't quote me on this, please!) that they are more aligned with Reform Judaism.

See, for example, A Reconstructionist View On Patrilineal Descent.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Much depends on your definition of observant. So, for example:

The World Union for Progressive Judaism > About:

The World Union, established in London in 1926, is the international network of the Reform, Liberal, Progressive and Reconstructionist movements, serving an estimated 1.8 million members worldwide in more than 1,250 congregations in over 50 countries.​

Should these 1.8 million be characterized as secular?

My definition of "observant" is synonymous with "religious." I do recognize that, today, there are different levels of observance practiced in Judaism, ranging from the very strict observance of the Haredim to the far more liberal observance of the Reform movement. Regardless of whatever level of observance one practices (or whether one is secular), I believe that we are all still Jews in this together.

I understand that there were rabbis in the early centuries C.E. who did not place as great an emphasis on how closely one adhered to the many mitzvot (commandments in our religion, most commonly said to number 613, and I define this here not for you because you already know this, but instead for our non-Jewish friends who may not be aware that Jews have more than the "10 Commandments" popularized in Christianity).

Rabbi Nehemiah (circa 150 C.E.) and his teacher Rabbi Akiva both stated that, if a fellow Jew was observant of even just one mitzvah, then that person was a worthy Jew. Even secular Jews may be either knowingly or unknowingly observing at least one mitzvah.