How would you define secular Jew?

[mangalavara]

I haven't heard of an ethnic Protestant or ethnic Catholic, so wondering what constitutes an ethnic "non-religious" Jew?

The reason, I think, that you haven’t heard of ethnic Catholics and ethnic Protestants is that Catholicism and the Protestant traditions are creedal and confessional by nature. Being a Catholic or Protestant involves subscribing to a list of beliefs. On the other hand, being a Jew is not a matter of subscribing to a creed or confession.

Jews are a people. (Being part of a people is a matter of birth or naturalization and assimilation.) This is how it has been understood for ages. In Exodus, for instance, the God of Israel did not create an Israelite religion and ask people all over the world to become Israelites, rather, he made a covenant with a nation, a people who had already existed—Israel. Jews are just one tribe within the Israelite nation. Even when Jews ignored the covenant, which you could say was not practicing Judaism, they were still called Judah by God and the prophets.

Can one be an "ethnic Muslim?"

There are some South Slavs who call themselves ethnic Muslims. In my opinion, the idea of Muslim as an ethnic label is weird because a Muslim is defined as a ‘submitter’ as in one who submits to God within the context of Islam. If a person does not subscribe to Islam but speaks Turkish, for example, and identifies with Turkish art, architecture, customs, achievements, and the like, maybe that person should just be called a Turk instead of something weird such as ‘ethnic Muslim?’

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

The reason, I think, that you haven’t heard of ethnic Catholics and ethnic Protestants is that Catholicism and the Protestant traditions are creedal and confessional by nature. Being a Catholic or Protestant involves subscribing to a list of beliefs. On the other hand, being a Jew is not a matter of subscribing to a creed or confession.

Jews are a people. (Being part of a people is a matter of birth or naturalization and assimilation.) This is how it has been understood for ages. In Exodus, for instance, the God of Israel did not create an Israelite religion and ask people all over the world to become Israelites, rather, he made a covenant with a nation, a people who had already existed—Israel. Jews are just one tribe within the Israelite nation. Even when Jews ignored the covenant, which you could say was not practicing Judaism, they were still called Judah by God and the prophets.



There are some South Slavs who call themselves ethnic Muslims. In my opinion, the idea of Muslim as an ethnic label is weird because a Muslim is defined as a ‘submitter’ as in one who submits to God within the context of Islam. If a person does not subscribe to Islam but speaks Turkish, for example, and identifies with Turkish art, architecture, customs, achievements, and the like, maybe that person should just be called a Turk instead of something weird such as ‘ethnic Muslim?’

I agree with what you wrote, with the exception of this statement: "Jews are just one tribe within the Israelite nation."

Unless I'm mistaken (or I'm misunderstanding your use of the term "Israelite nation"), I believe (and apparently so do a number of other Jews here, such as @rosends, @Harel13, @IndigoChild5559) that the term "Israelite nation" refers entirely to Jews and Judaism. I think that was pretty much hashed out in this forum's "Jewish Messiah" thread awhile back, with one Christian in particular being of another opinion. This was my own contribution to that discussion.

 

[mangalavara]

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe (and apparently so do a number of other Jews here, such as @rosends, @Harel13, @IndigoChild5559) that the term "Israelite nation" refers entirely to Jews and Judaism.

Assuming that Jews know this topic better than me, I stand corrected.

If anything that I have said sounded offensive or bad in any way, I am sorry.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Assuming that Jews know this topic better than me, I stand corrected.

If anything that I have said sounded offensive or bad in any way, I am sorry.

No, please don't apologize for anything you posted! I have never seen anything offensive in any of your postings. I apologize if I caused you to feel a need to apologize.

 

[mangalavara]

No, please don't apologize for anything you posted! I have never seen anything offensive in any of your postings. I apologize if I caused you to feel a need to apologize.

I apologized because I think that what I said regarding Jews/Israel (as in B’nei Yisrael) sounds like something that certain non-Jewish groups might say.

Having read this post, I understand now that a Jew is not necessarily a member of the historical Tribe of Judah. Initially, I had assumed that Jew meant the same thing as Yehudi as in a member of that particular tribe.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

I apologized because I think that what I said regarding Jews/Israel (as in B’nei Yisrael) sounds like something that certain non-Jewish groups might say.

Having read this post, I understand now that a Jew is not necessarily a member of the historical Tribe of Judah. Initially, I had assumed that Jew meant the same thing as Yehudi as in a member of that particular tribe.

You have my deepest respect, dear friend, and I want you to know that it was not my intention to take you to task for that one statement that you posted. I think that you are extremely knowledgeable about religion and I learn a lot from you.

 

[mangalavara]

You have my deepest respect, dear friend, and I want you to know that it was not my intention to take you to task for that one statement that you posted. I think that you are extremely knowledgeable about religion and I learn a lot from you.

Thank you for assuring me about this. I feel okay.

 

[Quintessence]

I grew up with a non-practicing "secular" Jew, so... I just think about my Jewish parent. As has been mentioned, levels of observance vary. We did do some celebrations in the family, so maybe it would be more accurate to say mostly non-practicing? No going to temple or anything like that, just keeping to a few traditions here and there. By some measures, that would make me a secular/non-practicing/ethnic Jew as well, but I don't tend to feel comfortable identifying that way. Wonder why that is?

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

I grew up with a non-practicing "secular" Jew, so... I just think about my Jewish parent. As has been mentioned, levels of observance vary. We did do some celebrations in the family, so maybe it would be more accurate to say mostly non-practicing? No going to temple or anything like that, just keeping to a few traditions here and there. By some measures, that would make me a secular/non-practicing/ethnic Jew as well, but I don't tend to feel comfortable identifying that way. Wonder why that is?

I think that our Jewish community has much to do with the way that many of us define ourselves as Jews, since (I believe) it is difficult to be a practicing Jew without also belonging to a Jewish community. It has been said that community is essential to Judaism -- traditionally, we require a minyan (quorum of ten Jewish adults) in order to say certain prayers.

Perhaps this is why you don't feel comfortable identifying yourself as a Jew? I imagine that you belong to a supportive community in the religion that you do practice?

 

[Quintessence]

I think that our Jewish community has much to do with the way that many of us define ourselves as Jews, since (I believe) it is difficult to be a practicing Jew without also belonging to a Jewish community. It has been said that community is essential to Judaism -- traditionally, we require a minyan (quorum of ten Jewish adults) in order to say certain prayers.

Yes, I was raised with that idea as well by my Jewish parent - the emphasis on the importance of community and putting the community first before self. Those values rubbed off on me in spite of disconnection from the Jewish community. In a way, it's probably part of what led me to holistic, ecological, and environmental thinking - I just took that idea of community and expanded it out to include the rest of the biosphere... haha.

Perhaps this is why you don't feel comfortable identifying yourself as a Jew? I imagine that you belong to a supportive community in the religion that you do practice?

That's probably part of it, and I think it's a respect thing, too. For certain titles, I feel like I need to have "earned" it in some way, or made some sort of meaningful commitment to something greater than myself like an organization or community. I felt that way about calling myself "Druid" - it didn't feel comfortable or right calling myself that unless I joined one of the Druid orders. That's a bit odd when contemporary Paganism is non-organized; self-identification is widely considered sufficient. But it just wasn't for me, with that specific title, as a respect thing. Same with Jewish - I feel I need to have real engagement with the community to use that term. Until then, I'm just this Pagan Druid who was raised in a Catholic and Jewish household and bears some of that legacy... including a respect for both of those religious traditions.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Yes, I was raised with that idea as well by my Jewish parent - the emphasis on the importance of community and putting the community first before self. Those values rubbed off on me in spite of disconnection from the Jewish community. In a way, it's probably part of what led me to holistic, ecological, and environmental thinking - I just took that idea of community and expanded it out to include the rest of the biosphere... haha.


That's probably part of it, and I think it's a respect thing, too. For certain titles, I feel like I need to have "earned" it in some way, or made some sort of meaningful commitment to something greater than myself like an organization or community. I felt that way about calling myself "Druid" - it didn't feel comfortable or right calling myself that unless I joined one of the Druid orders. That's a bit odd when contemporary Paganism is non-organized; self-identification is widely considered sufficient. But it just wasn't for me, with that specific title, as a respect thing. Same with Jewish - I feel I need to have real engagement with the community to use that term. Until then, I'm just this Pagan Druid who was raised in a Catholic and Jewish household and bears some of that legacy... including a respect for both of those religious traditions.

I can empathize with what you've written here, particularly the idea of putting the community before self. Converts to Judaism, too, have to demonstrate their meaningful commitment by undergoing a course of study in the Jewish religion and Jewish history, appearance before at least three rabbis or equivalent for questioning after the course of study is completed, males undergoing circumcision (or, for the already circumcised, the symbolic drawing of a drop of blood), and immersion in a mikvah for both males and females. At least, that's the Orthodox and Conservative way of doing conversions -- other branches in Judaism may have their own requirements.

I like your respect for your parents' heritage (and, ultimately, your own heritage). I think that respect for others ties in with respect for ourselves, in the same way that we need to love ourselves in order to love others.

 

[YoursTrue]

My definition of "observant" is synonymous with "religious." I do recognize that, today, there are different levels of observance practiced in Judaism, ranging from the very strict observance of the Haredim to the far more liberal observance of the Reform movement. Regardless of whatever level of observance one practices (or whether one is secular), I believe that we are all still Jews in this together.

I understand that there were rabbis in the early centuries C.E. who did not place as great an emphasis on how closely one adhered to the many mitzvot (commandments in our religion, most commonly said to number 613, and I define this here not for you because you already know this, but instead for our non-Jewish friends who may not be aware that Jews have more than the "10 Commandments" popularized in Christianity).

Rabbi Nehemiah (circa 150 C.E.) and his teacher Rabbi Akiva both stated that, if a fellow Jew was observant of even just one mitzvah, then that person was a worthy Jew. Even secular Jews may be either knowingly or unknowingly observing at least one mitzvah.

A Jew who does not self-identify as religious

What is considered one mitzvah?

 

[YoursTrue]

Reform Judaism accepts as Jewish a child born of a Jewish father but not necessarily a Jewish mother. So, no, a Lubavitcher rabbi (a member of the Haredim, which some call the "ultra-Orthodox") would not accept him as a Jew. The same would go for a rabbi of other Orthodox or Conservative branches of Judaism. I'm not very familiar with the Reconstructionist branch, but I think (don't quote me on this, please!) that they are more aligned with Reform Judaism.

I do believe that the path for conversion for a child of a Jewish father, provided that the child has been brought up in the Jewish faith by his/her father, is easier than it would be for a person choosing to convert from an outside faith. Some rabbis might treat such a required conversion as a mere formality, since obviously a lengthy period of study (which not only includes an understanding of the Jewish religion but also Jewish history) would not seem as necessary for a person who has been living a Jewish life since childhood.

It's interesting to note that Israel's first Prime Minister, D inavid Ben-Gurion (1886-1973) argued that anyone who declared himself to be a Jew, lived a Jewish life, and was involved in the welfare of the Jewish people, was in fact a Jew. Ben-Gurion stated: "We have been Jews without definition for the last 3,000 years and we shall remain so... By one definition the Jews are a religious community... There is a definition that Jews are a nation... There are Jews without any definition. They are just Jews. I am one of them. I don't need any definition. I am what I am..."

So men meaning humans are not agreed as to who really is or isn't a Jew religiously, not religiously, or genetically by birth mother or father, is that right? That is interesting as to ben gurions definition.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

What is considered one mitzvah?

Well, I personally would choose the weekly celebration of Shabbat, as this has traditionally been the most universally observed mitzvah in Judaism. Different branches of Judaism may observe Shabbat differently but, whatever one's level of observance may be in Judaism, Shabbat is central to Jewish life.

So men meaning humans are not agreed as to who really is or isn't a Jew religiously, not religiously, or genetically by birth mother or father, is that right? That is interesting as to ben gurions definition.

We have different branches of Judaism because all Jews do not necessarily agree on all things.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, I personally would choose the weekly celebration of Shabbat, as this has traditionally been the most universally observed mitzvah in Judaism. Different branches of Judaism may observe Shabbat differently but, whatever one's level of observance may be in Judaism, Shabbat is central to Jewish life.



We have different branches of Judaism because all Jews do not necessarily agree on all things.

Ok well here's the thing, although not really the question from the beginning...what is the outcome of a person if one mitzvah is observed? I mean what happens to a person if he doesn't observe even one mitzvah.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Ok well here's the thing, although not really the question from the beginning...what is the outcome of a person if one mitzvah is observed? I mean what happens to a person if he doesn't observe even one mitzvah.

I can't really answer what happens to a person who doesn't observe even one mitzvah. I'm uncomfortable with that kind of judgment of others. There's probably something in Halacha (Judaic law) that addresses it, but I would leave that to others here who are more knowledgeable in Halacha than I am.

I think that secular Jews should have no problem in obeying the mitzvah that tells us not to oppress the weak. Honestly, there are no doubt a number of secular Jews who obey that mitzvah better than some religious folk do. That's not to point a finger of judgment at the religious among us, either. We are all human beings with our own failings, after all.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this discussion but I'd like to hear opinions as to what is a "secular" Jew. From Jews and non-Jews if possible.

A secular Jew is simply a Jew who does not practice any form of Judaism (and has not converted to some other religion).

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ok well here's the thing, although not really the question from the beginning...what is the outcome of a person if one mitzvah is observed? I mean what happens to a person if he doesn't observe even one mitzvah.

Well you will get different answers depending on the Jew you talk to

Here is my less than two cents worth. Just because a Jew is not religious, not not mean they aren't ethical. Rabbi Hillel said, "What is hateful to you, don't do to others. This is the whole Torah. All the rest is commentary." So a Jew who is secular but ethical still is getting at the heart of Torah, even if they don't do so well in keeping all the commandments.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Much depends on your definition of observant. So, for example:

The World Union for Progressive Judaism > About:

The World Union, established in London in 1926, is the international network of the Reform, Liberal, Progressive and Reconstructionist movements, serving an estimated 1.8 million members worldwide in more than 1,250 congregations in over 50 countries.​

Should these 1.8 million be characterized as secular?

No. The Reform Jews I know attend synagogue where they say prayers, sing psalms, listen to the Torah, etc. IOW they do religious things. Just because their observance level is more liberal than the Orthodox is no reason not to acknowledge that they are religious.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Can one call himself a secular Christian? He can live in North Dakota US or Sweden, I suppose. And call himself perhaps a secular Christian. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???

No, because Christianity is a RELIGION.

Jews are not a religion. Judaism is the religion of the Jews, but a Jew is not simply someone who follows Judaism. We are a tribal people, like the Lakota or the Zulu. Just like some Lakota follow traditional Lakota spirituality and some don't, some Jews follow Judaism and some don't.