How Would You Reform Islam?

[Aupmanyav]

Futile exercise. Cannot be reformed.

 

[psychoslice]

I'd like to see more secular, humane, free governments. Spreading of secular education. Free lands where people can live happily however they choose.

That was nice to hear from you.

 

[LuisDantas]

Because that is your view? That is why I hope the answer is yes. Can I honestly say this makes my answer more valid? I don't think so.

I think it all comes down to this excerpt from your previous post, Stephen:

I think Islam is constantly reforming itself to suit the cultural environment in which it finds itself. I think it can do so because the core message of Islam, i.e. submission to Gods will is one that transcends culture.

God is in and of itself a concept that depends very much on culture, and that has painfully limited the ability of Islam to reform itself, much to the frustration of so many well-meaning people both involved and uninvolved with Muslim practice.

It is in my sincere opinion a grave and very destructive mistake to attempt to make submission to God a main tenet of any religion. And Islam takes it to such a extreme that I can only dread the results even while I sincerely admire the intent of so many who engage in it.

Naming the Sacred "God" is a self-inflicted hardship for any faith. And also, in my sincere opinion, a fatal, even inexcusable flaw. Particularly when the issue of submission to His will is raised (which is the self-declared central point of Islam), it just makes the religious responsibility of people too external to actually work.

 

[Sunstone]

Futile exercise. Cannot be reformed.

Why not?

 

[Sunstone]

I'd like to see more secular, humane, free governments. Spreading of secular education. Free lands where people can live happily however they choose.

How long do you think it might take to achieve those goals?

 

[sandandfoam]

God is in and of itself a concept that depends very much on culture,

I disagree. There seem to me to be as many understandings of God as there are people. On the surface there is much disunity. However, I think that when we go deeper into the experience of God (AKA Buddha nature/inner light etc) we find unity. I believe that there is something of the infinite in all of us. I understand this as God. I accept that others interpret this differently and that some (many?) deny it. I believe it unites us.

It is in my sincere opinion a grave and very destructive mistake to attempt to make submission to God a main tenet of any religion. And Islam takes it to such a extreme that I can only dread the results even while I sincerely admire the intent of so many who engage in it.

Submission is, to my mind, no different than living in accordance with ones Buddha nature or being true to what one is.

Naming the Sacred "God" is a self-inflicted hardship for any faith. And also, in my sincere opinion, a fatal, even inexcusable flaw.

That is a scathing judgement. If I claim that such naming works for me why would you presume to judge me so harshly? Is that not a manifestation of the type of intolerance that liberals should rail against?

 

[LuisDantas]

I disagree. There seem to me to be as many understandings of God as there are people. On the surface there is much disunity. However, I think that when we go deeper into the experience of God (AKA Buddha nature/inner light etc) we find unity. I believe that there is something of the infinite in all of us. I understand this as God. I accept that others interpret this differently and that some (many?) deny it. I believe it unites us.

How would you reconcile that perception with the plain fact that atheism is disapproved of, sometimes quite harmfully, by many people?

Submission is, to my mind, no different than living in accordance with ones Buddha nature or being true to what one is.

You are wise enough to know better than to see submission as an excuse for disrespecting people. So many are not.

That is a scathing judgement.

Yes, it is.

If I claim that such naming works for me why would you presume to judge me so harshly?

You? Nah, you are one of the most religiously wise people I ever met. I can testify that it does, indeed, work for you.

That does make it that much more frustrating that you don't see how dangerous that belief can be to others, though.

Is that not a manifestation of the type of intolerance that liberals should rail against?

No, actually it is the insistence of rejecting intolerance.

Picturing the source of the Sacred as an actual sentient will, giving it a name and expecting it to manifest through external authorities that must be submitted to - be those authorities a select few people or scriptures - is simply not conductive to religious health. It is branding people as not being capable of actual religious responsibility, and therefore encouraging them to not even try.

 

[YmirGF]

Personally speaking, I don't believe the Islam can be reformed.

 

[Sunstone]

Personally speaking, I don't believe the Islam can be reformed.

Why not?

 

[sandandfoam]

How would you reconcile that perception with the plain fact that atheism is disapproved of, sometimes quite harmfully, by many people?

I believe that intolerance arises from uncertainty. I think that people sometimes see in others that which they dislike in themselves and that this leads to negative attitudes towards others.
What I fear or hate is a reflection of things inside myself. That's how I see it anyway.

You ... know better than to see submission as an excuse for disrespecting people. So many are not.

I think your point illustrates that submission is not the problem - attitudes to others are.

Picturing the source of the Sacred as an actual sentient will, giving it a name and expecting it to manifest through external authorities that must be submitted to - be those authorities a select few people or scriptures - is simply not conductive to religious health. It is branding people as not being capable of actual religious responsibility, and therefore encouraging them to not even try.

Which is maybe why it is considered a sin in Islam to associate any deity of personality with God

 

[LuisDantas]

That is basically my own point, Stephen.

Submission to an external authority for supposed religious and moral truths far too often leads to not feeling truly responsible for one's own moral directives and to simply take it for granted that disbelievers are in the wrong.

As for God having no personality, I don't think that works very well either. Muslims generally do not seem to hesitate in thinking of God as having a clear personality and very specific demands. Which would be ok if they did not also often simply accept those without much questioning.

 

[sandandfoam]

That is basically my own point, Stephen.

I'm sure we'll still find plenty to debate

Submission to an external authority for supposed religious and moral truths far too often leads to not feeling truly responsible for one's own moral directives and to simply take it for granted that disbelievers are in the wrong.

It is my belief that the purpose of submission is to dissolve the barrier between internal and external.

As for God having no personality, I don't think that works very well either. Muslims generally do not seem to hesitate in thinking of God as having a clear personality and very specific demands. Which would be ok if they did not also often simply accept those without much questioning.

I am pretty sure that any one who made such a claim would be misrepresenting Islam.
See here for example: What is the concept of God in islam? | Islam For Your Information

 

[Assad91]

How long do you think it might take to achieve those goals?

I'll just say, I'mnot holding my breath.

 

[YmirGF]

Why not?

It is complicated, Phil, but this is part of the reason why it cannot change in any meaningful way.

Muhsin Khan
Forbidden to you (for food) are: Al-Maytatah (the dead animals - cattle-beast not slaughtered), blood, the flesh of swine, and the meat of that which has been slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allah, or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., or on which Allah's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering, and that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by the goring of horns - and that which has been (partly) eaten by a wild animal - unless you are able to slaughter it (before its death) - and that which is sacrificed (slaughtered) on An-Nusub (stone altars). (Forbidden) also is to use arrows seeking luck or decision, (all) that is Fisqun (disobedience of Allah and sin). This day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above-mentioned meats), then surely, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Pickthall
Forbidden unto you (for food) are carrion and blood and swineflesh, and that which hath been dedicated unto any other than Allah, and the strangled, and the dead through beating, and the dead through falling from a height, and that which hath been killed by (the goring of) horns, and the devoured of wild beasts, saving that which ye make lawful (by the death-stroke), and that which hath been immolated unto idols. And (forbidden is it) that ye swear by the divining arrows. This is an abomination. This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin: (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Yusuf Ali
Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. ​

How can you change something that is already perfect? Reforming Islam would usually mean going back to the Islam of the original companions of Muhammad. By default, that would make it far more strict and conservative by our standards.

That said, we may see a new sect emerge in Islam that attempts to embrace modernity. Ultimately that new sect would be bitterly resented and persecuted by the major sects (Sunni and Shia) as not being "true" Muslims for daring to change long standing beliefs and traditions. In any event, the "reform" would not go well and many people would be persecuted and killed.

Here is a partial explanation of the above passage...

Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Islam Has Been Perfected For Muslims

 

[icehorse]

Islam better be reformed or we're all in for - literally - a world of hurt.

Change will come from within. I think the best way to encourage this change is to teach Muslim women - around the world - critical thinking skills. Such education can come in small pieces. For example, if a person learns what a false dilemma argument is, that knowledge is both directly useful, AND it opens up a window to more learning.

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

 

[sandandfoam]

Islam better be reformed or we're all in for - literally - a world of hurt.

Change will come from within. I think the best way to encourage this change is to teach Muslim women - around the world - critical thinking skills. Such education can come in small pieces. For example, if a person learns what a false dilemma argument is, that knowledge is both directly useful, AND it opens up a window to more learning.

Why do you presume that Muslim women are lacking critical thinking skills?
To do so seems both chauvinistic and bigoted.

 

[LuisDantas]

I am pretty sure that any one who made such a claim would be misrepresenting Islam.
See here for example: What is the concept of God in islam? | Islam For Your Information

I might well come to agree. But how much of a practical difference does it make?

It truly seems that it is so hard to see one not misrepresenting Islam that to this day one would be hard pressed to even find consensus of a single example of existing Islamic country.

 

[Ingledsva]

Why do you presume that Muslim women are lacking critical thinking skills?
To do so seems both chauvinistic and bigoted.

WHY?


Anyone - male or female - that has a one religion society, and only religious education - is going to have problems with critical thinking skills.


They are for all practical purposes - brain washed.


Can they break this? Yes, especially now with the internet allowing access to "other" ideas.


We see differences today in modern Muslim women that attend secular schools, especially in secular countries.



*

 

[icehorse]

Why do you presume that Muslim women are lacking critical thinking skills?
To do so seems both chauvinistic and bigoted.

What Ingledsva said, plus, it was meant to be just the opposite. Most Muslims live in impoverished, undereducated countries. In general, a great way to help such populations bootstrap themselves is to give the women education. Given a decent education, women do a far better job than men in elevating a society.

 

[sandandfoam]

WHY?


Anyone - male or female - that has a one religion society, and only religious education - is going to have problems with critical thinking skills.


They are for all practical purposes - brain washed.

You're describing Ireland. I imagine many other countries too. I think you're wrong. Of course it could be I lack critical thinking skills....