Huckabee defends Duggars over Teenage Molestation Accusations

[Curious George]

It is very rare that they do change. It is a sexuality. It is not chosen. However, just because someone's voices told them to kill doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences, and research into some sort of preventive programs.
I suppose that, yes, we don't actually know, but, in all reality, if he had changed their would be some sort of evidence to support it, such as extensive therapy and chemical castration. But because this situation has not been handled properly, for the sake of others it should be assumed he still is, and that he is still a potential threat.

But, you are basing this on research about adult recidivism. Child, adolescent, and adult sexuality are different. Adolescent sexuality is a whole lot closer to adult sexuality but it is still different. Moreover, the evidence is not that he is a pedophile but a predator. That he acted on younger children could have occurred simply because they were the weakest people that were available to him. While I agree that whatever issues this man has are not likely to have disappeared, dawny has a valid point that there are not enough facts for you to jump to the conclusions that you are. That this man has evaded justice, that the victims seem to have received no form of help, and that the parents helped achieve these unfortunate results are factors that make this case especially offensive. But I think dawny might be correct that we cannot jump to some conclusions without knowing more facts.

 

[Curious George]

No, and most prosecutors would ask for something for the child that was germane to whatever he or she did. I'm not an attorney, I'm an advanced practice RN. I see the aftermath in terms of the physical and psychological damage. Somehow that, IMO, is harder when you see the child has been forever changed and not in a good way. I accept that that biases me. I admit it freely. Now, what can we do to the gradation of crimes regarding sexual issues? As I said, each case must be viewed by the age of the child and what was done. I don't believe that what the parents did for Duggar was nearly enough and in many ways, ran contrary to his needs at that time. Having him talk to a cop who himself was a pedophile?.. Please! And counseling with a family member? He needed a specialist in sexual deviance. Preferably a court appointed one. Does this make us closer to the same page?

Absolutely what the parents did was wrong, however there is no way the parents new the police officer was a pedophile. But even if he wasn't, getting a buddy cop to get involved while keeping the issue quiet is wrong.

Absolutely, handling such cases on a case by case basis is important, but by enabling flexibility, we lose consistency and open the door to gender or racial discrimination (black boy who acts inappropriately with white girl gets the book thrown at him, while white girl who acts inappropriately with white boy gets community service and an expunged record). While I think case by case flexibility is good, it is important to draw lines.

If we are to determine cases in a case by case basis, how can we say what should have happened to this duggar? We do not know all of the facts, those facts have not been determined by a court. Certainly we all agree that something more should have happened, licensed professionals should have been (and likely should still be) involved, but more than that what can we say?

 

[gsa]

Absolutely what the parents did was wrong, however there is no way the parents new the police officer was a pedophile. But even if he wasn't, getting a buddy cop to get involved while keeping the issue quiet is wrong.

Absolutely, handling such cases on a case by case basis is important, but by enabling flexibility, we lose consistency and open the door to gender or racial discrimination (black boy who acts inappropriately with white girl gets the book thrown at him, while white girl who acts inappropriately with white boy gets community service and an expunged record). While I think case by case flexibility is good, it is important to draw lines.

If we are to determine cases in a case by case basis, how can we say what should have happened to this duggar? We do not know all of the facts, those facts have not been determined by a court. Certainly we all agree that something more should have happened, licensed professionals should have been (and likely should still be) involved, but more than that what can we say?

Speaking of that kiddie porn cop, the story just keeps getting worse:

When Hutchens was still working as a trooper in 2006, Jim Bob Duggar approached him with the information that the teenaged Josh had sexually molested someone, according to a police report obtained by InTouch. Josh had, in fact, "forcibly fondled" five underage girls, some of whom were his sisters. Hutchens did not officially report the teen’s actions but instead gave him a “very stern talk,” the report said.


Hutchens now claims that the elder Duggar did not tell him the whole story. In a prison interview reported by InTouch, Hutchens said that both Jim Bob and Josh told him that Josh had molested only one victim.

In the interview, Hutchens also reveals that he, too, is a Christian. Oh yeah, and Josh Duggar also sued Arkansas DHS in 2007, in court documents now sealed:

Police referred the matter to the Families in Need of Services agency, which has jurisdiction over minors. The Department of Human Services (DHS) was then brought into the case, In Touch has learned. Nine months after those agencies entered the Duggar molestation case, Josh Duggar sued the Arkansas Department of Human Services. A trial was held on August 6, 2007.

The results of the investigation into the Duggars and Josh’s trial are sealed. But a source familiar with the Duggar investigation told In Touch it was likely that Josh “appealed the DHS decision or finding from their investigation.” The source notes that DHS had the authority to apply “restrictions or stipulations about him being at home with the victims

If they applied restrictions, the hearing might in fact have been his appeal of those restrictions. There would have been testimony at that point, which might very well contradict these narratives.

It is also interesting to note that Hutchens was retired from the state troopers when he was arrested for child pornography offenses in September of 2005, and had been a bailiff for less than a year with a local court. So was he even a trooper when he was approached by Jim Bob Duggar ? And did Duggar intentionally mislead him about what had happened? Also how did he know Hutchens? Shared religious beliefs?

I doubt I would be eager to bring the authorities in if I was the parent who had to deal with this, but it is clear that the son needed help and there were over a dozen other children to consider by that point. Did they mean nothing in comparison to the firstborn male? So little that appropriate counseling was not even considered?

 

[Curious George]

Ok, I admit that I did misread what you wrote at the beginning. I throught it read A 8 year old, not the 8 year old. So mea culpa about that one. You seem stuck on that one comment where I called your example silly. I hadn't realized you were so sensitive. An 8 year old who flashes is, IMO, not a sexual deviant. Otoh, what this man, namely Duggar, was sexually deviant. And worse, the actions of his parents were reprehensible.

I am not offended or stuck on you calling the example silly. I fully acknowledge it is an extreme example. My use of your word is meant to convey that that there are instances where a sexual assault is committed within the letter of the law but pushing those instances through when dealing with juveniles does not make sense and is silly. While I agree that there are also extreme examples in the other direction, it is important to remember why and for whom the laws were written. Unfortunately, unless there is ambiguity in the law this issue does not come up.

 

[dawny0826]

It is very rare that they do change. It is a sexuality. It is not chosen. However, just because someone's voices told them to kill doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences, and research into some sort of preventive programs.
I suppose that, yes, we don't actually know, but, in all reality, if he had changed their would be some sort of evidence to support it, such as extensive therapy and chemical castration. But because this situation has not been handled properly, for the sake of others it should be assumed he still is, and that he is still a potential threat.

You're assuming that Duggar is indeed a pedophile. You don't know this. You know only that he acted in the way that a pedophile might.

Is he a potential threat? Yes. I understand concern in this regard.

But, there's a difference between acknowledging his potential to continue doing this type of harm and outright labeling him a rapist and pedophile - unfit to raise his own children. I acknowledge the possibility that this may be true, but, I don't have the evidence to conclusively determine that this is or isn't true.

 

[Revoltingest]

It is very rare that they do change. It is a sexuality. It is not chosen. However, just because someone's voices told them to kill doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences, and research into some sort of preventive programs.
I suppose that, yes, we don't actually know, but, in all reality, if he had changed their would be some sort of evidence to support it, such as extensive therapy and chemical castration. But because this situation has not been handled properly, for the sake of others it should be assumed he still is, and that he is still a potential threat.

Something I heard on the radio today is relevant....

 

[Revoltingest]

Hmmm....that link disappeared.
I'm trying to recall what the NPR piece was.
I believe it was about permanent over-criminalization of childhood sexual offending.
Another attempt to link an NPR article failed.
Anyone interested can search for.....
"NPR juvenile sex offender"

Anyway, another celebrity is dealing with it now...
Lena Dunham responds to sites accusing her of sexually abusing her sister - The Washington Post

 

[Shad]

Huckabee's campaign website pulled the Duggar endorsement for his candidacy. Gotta love hypocrisy of fundamentalist.

 

[JoStories]

I am not offended or stuck on you calling the example silly. I fully acknowledge it is an extreme example. My use of your word is meant to convey that that there are instances where a sexual assault is committed within the letter of the law but pushing those instances through when dealing with juveniles does not make sense and is silly. While I agree that there are also extreme examples in the other direction, it is important to remember why and for whom the laws were written. Unfortunately, unless there is ambiguity in the law this issue does not come up.

Hmm..well, the fact that I am a survivor of rape, as is my daughter, I consider keeping admitted sexual deviants away from children a prudent measure. The inclination does not simply 'go away' as one ages. If one is attracted to children and that was the case with this man, is it not prudent to restrict him in this manner? We don't know whether or not he has recommitted his inclinations. He may have found, as many pedophiles do, a more private or secretive way to abuse. As did my grandfather and my daughter's rapist. The latter was jailed and the minute he was released, he did the same thing to another, younger child. This time she was 5 and damaged by this man for life. I would much prefer to protect children than this man. If that makes me biased, so be it.

Edited for missing information as noted above.

 

[JoStories]

Huckabee's campaign website pulled the Duggar endorsement for his candidacy. Gotta love hypocrisy of fundamentalist.

Not surprising at all to me. How many times have politicians done such a thing. No matter what party they belong to they universally lie or distort the truth. I trust not a single one of them. The idiot we have for a govenor now acts so much like a petulant child, people are trying to find ways to impreach the moron. This is how politicians act and we, as citizens, don't do a damn thing. We may p*ss and moan but no one really does anything. I've tried but most simply think there is nothing we are able to do about it. Unfortunately, I tend to agree.

 

[SomeRandom]

You're assuming that Duggar is indeed a pedophile. You don't know this. You know only that he acted in the way that a pedophile might.

Is he a potential threat? Yes. I understand concern in this regard.

But, there's a difference between acknowledging his potential to continue doing this type of harm and outright labeling him a rapist and pedophile - unfit to raise his own children. I acknowledge the possibility that this may be true, but, I don't have the evidence to conclusively determine that this is or isn't true.

Well he's a child molester (which is indeed different than a pedophile clinically speaking.) So yes, technically speaking we can't label him a pedophile. In the common vernacular people will, though. However, the fact that he did this to multiple children indicates sexual predator behavior at the least. Or perhaps even indicates some sort of abusive inclinations. Maybe he's continuing the cycle, so to speak. But I for one do call into question the parenting of ANYONE with such allegations against their character. We're not talking about some remorseful 12 or 13 year old who was a bit confused or themselves abused and trying to figure it out. We're not even talking about a child acting out abuse on another of a similar age as a coping mechanism. Which happens sadly. This is a person who has MULTIPLE allegations against him for abusing prepubescent children as a 15 year old. Call me paranoid but I wouldn't trust the bloke to chaperon any time soon. Or ever. And I'm mightily concerned about his kids.

 

[JoStories]

Well he's a child molester (which is indeed different than a pedophile clinically speaking.) So yes, technically speaking we can't label him a pedophile. In the common vernacular people will, though. However, the fact that he did this to multiple children indicates sexual predator behavior at the least. Or perhaps even indicates some sort of abusive inclinations. Maybe he's continuing the cycle, so to speak. But I for one do call into question the parenting of ANYONE with such allegations against their character. We're not talking about some remorseful 12 or 13 year old who was a bit confused or themselves abused and trying to figure it out. We're not even talking about a child acting out abuse on another of a similar age as a coping mechanism. Which happens sadly. This is a person who has MULTIPLE allegations against him for abusing prepubescent children as a 15 year old. Call me paranoid but I wouldn't trust the bloke to chaperon any time soon. Or ever. And I'm mightily concerned about his kids.

Most excellent post. Applause.....and bravo.

 

[SomeRandom]

Most excellent post. Applause.....and bravo.

THANK YOU.

 

[Revoltingest]

The inclination does not simply 'go away' as one ages. If one is attracted to children and that was the case with this man, is it not prudent to restrict him in this manner?

Is there evidence for this claim?

From the NPR article I cited earlier....

Juvenile sex offenders also re-offend at a much lower rate than adult offenders, according to the Justice Department. Burkland says his therapy is designed to help them build healthy relationships with their peers. But he's not advocating for the registries to go away: some minors are a real threat.

"The juvenile who is looking for multiple opportunities and just prefers and likes to have contact with younger children would be a high risk to re-offend, and should be on the registry," he says.

Instead Burkland says prosecutors and judges should have more discretion to figure out who needs to be registered and who doesn't. One of the few people working to change this practice is Nicole Pittman, a director at the advocacy group Impact Justice.

"We are criminalizing normative child sexual behavior in large fashion," she says.

This situation appears more complex than first glance would suggest.
Because juveniles have quite immature brains (physically, emotionally & intellectually), they have far more potential to recover from deviant inclinations than do adults. I wouldn't write them all off with one broad brush as dangerous for their entire life. Upon discovering a child's offense, there must be intervention & evaluation. Only then determine how to proceed. Some kids need therapy....some need monitoring....& some should be removed from society.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

From the NPR article I cited earlier....

Juvenile sex offenders also re-offend at a much lower rate than adult offenders, according to the Justice Department. Burkland says his therapy is designed to help them build healthy relationships with their peers. But he's not advocating for the registries to go away: some minors are a real threat.
I bolded that part, because therapy is very important when reducing the chances of re-offending. In the case we are discussing, rather than getting the boy therapy the issue has been swept under the rug.
Without intervention such as therapy, as I stated before, it should very much be assumed he is still a threat for the safety and wellbeing of others.

 

[Revoltingest]

Juvenile sex offenders also re-offend at a much lower rate than adult offenders, according to the Justice Department. Burkland says his therapy is designed to help them build healthy relationships with their peers. But he's not advocating for the registries to go away: some minors are a real threat.
I bolded that part, because therapy is very important when reducing the chances of re-offending. In the case we are discussing, rather than getting the boy therapy the issue has been swept under the rug.
Without intervention such as therapy, as I stated before, it should very much be assumed he is still a threat for the safety and wellbeing of others.

Aye, but the sex offender registry might exacerbate problems for some juvenile offenders who don't pose a risk after evaluation & maturity. Inability to find work & housing is a serious matter, essentially prohibiting some potentially good citizens from existing normally.
Note:
To be clear, I oppose sweeping problems under the rug.
No matter the problems with our justice system, it is what we have.

I've some experience with this as a landlord. (I'll lease to some, but not others. Evaluating them can be very creepy.) Without judicious handling of these people, we risk actually increasing crime. It's about an intelligent balance....avoiding reactionary & simplistic public policy.
Perhaps the registry should even be expanded to include other threats, eg, murderers?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Aye, but the sex offender registry might exacerbate problems for some juvenile offenders who don't pose a risk after evaluation & maturity. Inability to find work & housing is a serious matter, essentially prohibiting some potentially good citizens from existing normally.

I've some experience with this as a landlord. (I'll lease to some, but not others. Evaluating them can be very creepy.) Without judicious handling of these people, we risk actually increasing crime. It's about an intelligent balance....avoiding reactionary & simplistic public policy.
Perhaps the registry should even be expanded to include other threats, eg, murderers?

That's true. There are some problems with the current system. But we are discussing the case of Josh Duggar, a case that has not involved judicious handling or therapy.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's true. There are some problems with the current system. But we are discussing the case of Josh Duggar, a case that has not involved judicious handling or therapy.

We certainly are.
We are also discussing how it could've been better handled.
Moreover, many such cases go unreported, eg, Lena Dunham.
It's a big & multi-faceted problem, eh.

 

[JoStories]

Is there evidence for this claim?

From the NPR article I cited earlier....

This situation appears more complex than first glance would suggest.
Because juveniles have quite immature brains (physically, emotionally & intellectually), they have far more potential to recover from deviant inclinations than do adults. I wouldn't write them all off with one broad brush as dangerous for their entire life. Upon discovering a child's offense, there must be intervention & evaluation. Only then determine how to proceed. Some kids need therapy....some need monitoring....& some should be removed from society.

From the statistics of the Centers for Sexual Offense Managment:

• 1995 estimates indicate that 260,300 rapes and attempted rapes and nearly 95,000 sexual assaults and threats of sexual assault were committed against persons 12 years of age or older (Greenfeld, 1997).

• In 1998, 20,608 arrests were made for forcible rape and 62,045 arrests were made for other sexual offenses (FBI, 1998).

• 43% of all rapes/sexual assaults occur between 6 p.m. and midnight.

• Six out of every 10 rapes/sexual assaults occur in the homes of victims, family members, or friends (Greenfeld, 1997).

• Sexual assault victimizations are highest among young adults between the ages of 16 and 19, low income individuals, and urban residents (Greenfeld, 1997).

• Juvenile sex offenders are typically between the ages of 13 and 17.

• • They are generally male.
  • 30-60% exhibit learning disabilities and academic dysfunction.
  • Up to 80% have a diagnosable psychiatric disorder.
  • Many have difficulties with impulse control and judgment.
  • 20-50% have histories of physical abuse.
  • 40-80% have histories of sexual abuse.
  
  Myth:
  "Youths do not commit sex offenses."
  
  Fact:
  Adolescents are responsible for a significant number of rape and child molestation cases each year.
  
  Sexual assaults committed by youth are a growing concern in this country. Currently, it is estimated that adolescents (ages 13 to 17) account for up to one-fifth of all rapes and one-half of all cases of child molestation committed each year (Barbaree, Hudson, and Seto, 1993). In 1995, youth were involved in 15% of all forcible rapes cleared by arrest—approximately 18 adolescents per 100,000 were arrested for forcible rape. In the same year, approximately 16,100 adolescents were arrested for sexual offenses, excluding rape and prostitution (Sickmund, Snyder, Poe-Yamagata, 1997).
  
  The majority of these incidents of sexual abuse involve adolescent male perpetrators. However, prepubescent youths also engage in sexually abusive behaviors.

 

[Revoltingest]

From the statistics of the Centers for Sexual Offense Managment:

• 
  
  
  • 1995 estimates indicate that 260,300 rapes and attempted rapes and nearly 95,000 sexual assaults and threats of sexual assault were committed against persons 12 years of age or older (Greenfeld, 1997).

• 
  
  
  • In 1998, 20,608 arrests were made for forcible rape and 62,045 arrests were made for other sexual offenses (FBI, 1998).

• 
  
  
  • 43% of all rapes/sexual assaults occur between 6 p.m. and midnight.

• 
  
  
  • Six out of every 10 rapes/sexual assaults occur in the homes of victims, family members, or friends (Greenfeld, 1997).

• 
  
  
  • Sexual assault victimizations are highest among young adults between the ages of 16 and 19, low income individuals, and urban residents (Greenfeld, 1997).

• 
  
  
  • Juvenile sex offenders are typically between the ages of 13 and 17.

• 
  
  
  • • They are generally male.
    • 30-60% exhibit learning disabilities and academic dysfunction.
    • Up to 80% have a diagnosable psychiatric disorder.
    • Many have difficulties with impulse control and judgment.
    • 20-50% have histories of physical abuse.
    • 40-80% have histories of sexual abuse.
    
    Myth:
    "Youths do not commit sex offenses."
    
    Fact:
    Adolescents are responsible for a significant number of rape and child molestation cases each year.
    
    Sexual assaults committed by youth are a growing concern in this country. Currently, it is estimated that adolescents (ages 13 to 17) account for up to one-fifth of all rapes and one-half of all cases of child molestation committed each year (Barbaree, Hudson, and Seto, 1993). In 1995, youth were involved in 15% of all forcible rapes cleared by arrest—approximately 18 adolescents per 100,000 were arrested for forcible rape. In the same year, approximately 16,100 adolescents were arrested for sexual offenses, excluding rape and prostitution (Sickmund, Snyder, Poe-Yamagata, 1997).
    
    The majority of these incidents of sexual abuse involve adolescent male perpetrators. However, prepubescent youths also engage in sexually abusive behaviors.

That's a lot of information.
How does it support your claim that the inclination does not
go away in juveniles as they mature into adults?
I don't disagree regarding adults who commit such offenses.
(Their minds are fully formed.)
But I'm skeptical that this applies to juvenile offenders.
I argue that they should be treated differently from adults,
with far more emphasis on rehabilitation than punishment.