Huckabee defends Duggars over Teenage Molestation Accusations

[MysticSang'ha]

The first statement seems focused on the victim while the last seems focused in the offender. If rehabilitation is our goal, especially with juveniles, how much should we consider the victim?

Earlier in the thread and elsewhere on RF, I offer suggestions for legal, financial, psychological, and medical help for survivors. These over the years have helped me and other survivors in practical and meaningful ways.

They need access to legal counsel as well as medical/psychiatric evaluations and treatment based on the severity of the trauma.

While some sexual assault might rival kidnapping and torture there is also assault that does not.

Therefore...?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am of the opinion "if you know one person with autism, then you know one person with autism."
How about where you source something that says people with aspergers cannot have empathy?

Neuroscience Sheds Light on Why People with Asperger’s Syndrome Lack Empathy | Psych Central
Families of those with Asperger’s want to know why their Aspies act the way they do. In my psychology practice I have Neuro-typical (NT) clients repeatedly ask me regarding their Asperger spouse, “Why can’t she see what I am saying?” Or they ask, “Why can’t he connectwith my feelings?”

Aspies have a huge disconnect between thinking and feeling, or cognitive empathy (CE) and emotional empathy (EE). But what is the cause of this disconnect? That’s the real “why” question.
Who Cares? Revisiting Empathy in Asperger Syndrome - Springer

Abstract
A deficit in empathy has consistently been cited as a central characteristic of Asperger syndrome (AS), but previous research on adults has predominantly focused on cognitive empathy, effectively ignoring the role of affective empathy. We administered the Interpersonal Reactivity Index (IRI), a multi-dimensional measure of empathy, and the Strange Stories test to 21 adults with AS and 21 matched controls. Our data show that while the AS group scored lower on the measures of cognitive empathy and theory of mind, they were no different from controls on one affective empathy scale of the IRI (empathic concern), and scored higher than controls on the other (personal distress). Therefore, we propose that the issue of empathy in AS should be revisited.

 

[leibowde84]

Hmm, there seems to be a lot of emotion in this thread...I should probably stay away, but, after reading, cannot keep from pointing out that there are conflicts in people's ideas of punishment. What should happen to a minor who commits sexual assault? Why?

Psychiatric help, counseling, constant supervision, etc. The parents put him right back in with his little sisters that he raped. I don't think the kid should be punished, but the parents certainly should.

 

[Scott C.]

I don't agree. I think punishment and/or ridicule is how we make sure something like this doesn't happen again. If we fail to acknowledge the horribly irresponsible nature of these parents, other fundamentalists will think it isn't that big of a deal. We need to make an example out of parents like this who disregard their children's safety in the interest of their religion/faith.

Like I said, I should read the case. I wasn't aware that the parents are fundamentalists. Are you suggesting that their faith condones the molestation of children, so they didn't take the case seriously enough? I'm thinking of the perpetrator, independent of his parents and religion. At 15, a boy does not always have the tools to make good choices and can make very serious mistakes. He can do this regardless of upbringing. If, and I say if, he has put this behind him as an adult, I don't think he should be dragged through it again.

I'm not a defender of child molesters. When my son was 14, his volunteer freshman coach was found to have molested a few boys on the team. He was put in prison where he belongs. He did this as an adult. Once he's back on the streets, he should be monitored the rest of his life. But I wouldn't be inclined to draw attention to the man when he's released. We need to protect children first and foremost and also be willing to forgive and accept that people can and do change.

Ok, I just read the case. I get it now. The perpetrator's parents are presented on TV as stalwarts of Christianity. I'm sure they already rub some people wrong and now it gets worse.

 

[Curious George]

Neuroscience Sheds Light on Why People with Asperger’s Syndrome Lack Empathy | Psych Central
Families of those with Asperger’s want to know why their Aspies act the way they do. In my psychology practice I have Neuro-typical (NT) clients repeatedly ask me regarding their Asperger spouse, “Why can’t she see what I am saying?” Or they ask, “Why can’t he connectwith my feelings?”

Aspies have a huge disconnect between thinking and feeling, or cognitive empathy (CE) and emotional empathy (EE). But what is the cause of this disconnect? That’s the real “why” question.
Who Cares? Revisiting Empathy in Asperger Syndrome - Springer

Your first quote, I am not so fond of.

This second quote is good. Nowhere in the second quote does it suggest that this is how all people with aspergers are. In fact, they are suggesting the topic of empathy needs revisiting. That some or even most people with aspergers are LESS empathic than someone else, does not mean that ALL people with aspergers do not have empathy. Any study which any person might cite clearly indicate statistical differences in levels of empathy, but none suggest that people with aspergers do not have empathy. They show that on average people with aspergers score lower. Lower doesn't mean absence.

 

[JoStories]

All is pretty extreme. Do you mind sharing which state you live in? Failing that, pick a state that at some point you have thought of living.

I have lived in almost all of them as a traveling nurse. My travels,took me to other places too, such as Africa, Europe, the USVI, Hawaii, Alaska, and more. And yes, I meant all.

 

[JoStories]

The "text book" defines pedophilia as an almost exclusive attraction to prepubescent children. Though, I don't disagree that his actions were abusive, I'd like to know what evidence you have to support that Duggar is engaging in such acts now. I'm curious as to what insight you have into HIS psyche to prove that he is a text book pedophile. I don't have enough evidence to draw such conclusions either way.

I didn't argue that rape isn't a form of molestation or that rape in and of itself isn't forcible. Rape is often primarily characterized by forced penetration or forced abuse. I've just not seen him accused of rape in any of the articles that I've read. I'm curious as to why you're using this terminology. I'm not stating that he hasn't been accused of rape. This is the first that I've heard him termed a rapist.

I'm asking you for evidence to support why you've stated what you have. Your opinion does not suffice as evidence.

Look up the defintion of rape. it includes molestation, which is what this man did. And my 'opinion' is based on my own rape, my daughter's, working as a SANE nurse and counseling rape survivors. What experience do you have with this?

 

[Curious George]

I have lived in almost all of them as a traveling nurse. My travels,took me to other places too, such as Africa, Europe, the USVI, Hawaii, Alaska, and more. And yes, I meant all.

Hawaii will do just fine...

Sexual assault in the fourth degree in Hawaii includes exposing one's genitals if the act would alarm the other person. So if we take an 8 year old and say that he or she exposes themselves to another 8 year old who is reasonably alarmed by the act, you feel prison is necessary?

 

[JoStories]

Hawaii will do just fine...

Sexual assault in the fourth degree in Hawaii includes exposing one's genitals if the act would alarm the other person. So if we take an 8 year old and say that he or she exposes themselves to another 8 year old who is reasonably alarmed by the act, you feel prison is necessary?

No, and IMO, your question or example if you will, is silly. Josh Duggar was 15 when he molested his sisters as young as 6 or 7. That is vastly different than what you proposed. A 16 year old knows that sexually molesting a child....and it WAS children, would be wrong. I fail to see how you don't see the obvious difference.

 

[Curious George]

I have lived in almost all of them as a traveling nurse. My travels,took me to other places too, such as Africa, Europe, the USVI, Hawaii, Alaska, and more. And yes, I meant all.

I realize my example is extreme. No sane judge or prosecutor would put the 8 year old on trial. However, the elements of sexual predation are present still as the act would fall into the abnormal behavior since the other child was not mutually engaged in what would otherwise be age appropriate behavior. But all means all. I find this an important question though and I hope you do not just cast it aside.
When dealing with minors the situation is especially tricky. There are court cases wherein some would think no punishment is severe enough. But there are many minors who while engaging in what is demonstrative of aspects of sexual predation skirt the lines.

I understand the whole let's get tough on predators angle, but at a certain point we are abusing laws and unnecessarily destroying lives. I am not suggesting in the duggar case he did not deserve severe punishment, I am suggesting that there are cases where we take a law and run a direction that is not necessary or helpful.

An example of this would be prosecution under child pornography laws of teens and preteens for sending pics to each other of themselves. Now this is not an overly prevalent problem in the justice system but it has happened. Some people want to stick to the very letter of the law even when it defies common sense. So, we need to be articulate and when we say all, we must mean all. Then we need to discuss how we deal with juvenile offenders. If we are serious about rehabilitation, prison and permanent placement on an offender list does not always fit for juvenile cases, even of sexual assault. While there are cases where I would support branding a kid for life and sending them to prison, there are also cases where such would not fit any conceivable notion of justice.

 

[Curious George]

No, and IMO, your question or example if you will, is silly. Josh Duggar was 15 when he molested his sisters as young as 6 or 7. That is vastly different than what you proposed. A 16 year old knows that sexually molesting a child....and it WAS children, would be wrong. I fail to see how you don't see the obvious difference.

I do see the difference. But, I asked about minors in general. Generally, we believe that minors deserve more leniency and a heavier focus on rehabilitation. The trouble is that the predation is there in some of the grey area cases. I am not an expert on juvenile recidivism of sexual predation, maybe the girl grows to a woman that uses men for sex, or maybe the boy grows to be a man with some weird fetish wherein both are within the bounds of what is not criminal but still reflect a degree of sexual predation. Maybe they grow into bullies who hit their pets and the sexual aspect is gone but the predation stays...idk. I haven't researched that. But the idea of sending kids to prison and sticking them on sex offender lists doesn't sit right with me unless we are talking a last resort or an especially heinous crime. I know that some will say any sexual assault is "especially heinous" but as my "silly" example shows that is not true.

Not to mention that filling sexual predator lists with kids who pantsed other kids or grabbed someone's butt when they were twelve diminishes the whole idea of the list in the first place.

It is really easy to take the "tough" stance on "all" sexual assault. But, I do not think that is what is best.

I don't have the answers, I don't know what is best for these kids. There is a line somewhere, and articulating that line is a lot harder than just being tough on all sexual assault.

 

[JoStories]

I realize my example is extreme. No sane judge or prosecutor would put the 8 year old on trial. However, the elements of sexual predation are present still as the act would fall into the abnormal behavior since the other child was not mutually engaged in what would otherwise be age appropriate behavior. But all means all. I find this an important question though and I hope you do not just cast it aside.
When dealing with minors the situation is especially tricky. There are court cases wherein some would think no punishment is severe enough. But there are many minors who while engaging in what is demonstrative of aspects of sexual predation skirt the lines.

I understand the whole let's get tough on predators angle, but at a certain point we are abusing laws and unnecessarily destroying lives. I am not suggesting in the duggar case he did not deserve severe punishment, I am suggesting that there are cases where we take a law and run a direction that is not necessary or helpful.

An example of this would be prosecution under child pornography laws of teens and preteens for sending pics to each other of themselves. Now this is not an overly prevalent problem in the justice system but it has happened. Some people want to stick to the very letter of the law even when it defies common sense. So, we need to be articulate and when we say all, we must mean all. Then we need to discuss how we deal with juvenile offenders. If we are serious about rehabilitation, prison and permanent placement on an offender list does not always fit for juvenile cases, even of sexual assault. While there are cases where I would support branding a kid for life and sending them to prison, there are also cases where such would not fit any conceivable notion of justice.

No sane judge, you say? Apparently you've never met a child so severely abused they have attachment disorders. I have. And apparently you've not read about children that age who have murdered or been budding serial killers in the making. The three markers of a sociopath.....killing or torturing animals, enuresis, and one other that escapes my memory at the moment. I have seen children brought to the ER multiple times and when the 'mother' brought them in, she would say 'take this...I don't want it anymore'. Those 'children' are forever lost. Sure, there's some kids that deserve liency, there's many more who dont

 

[Revoltingest]

For reference, some info on the FBI's definition of rape.....
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...ew-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions

Note:
Not saying it's the only or best definition.

 

[JoStories]

I do see the difference. But, I asked about minors in general. Generally, we believe that minors deserve more leniency and a heavier focus on rehabilitation. The trouble is that the predation is there in some of the grey area cases. I am not an expert on juvenile recidivism of sexual predation, maybe the girl grows to a woman that uses men for sex, or maybe the boy grows to be a man with some weird fetish wherein both are within the bounds of what is not criminal but still reflect a degree of sexual predation. Maybe they grow into bullies who hit their pets and the sexual aspect is gone but the predation stays...idk. I haven't researched that. But the idea of sending kids to prison and sticking them on sex offender lists doesn't sit right with me unless we are talking a last resort or an especially heinous crime. I know that some will say any sexual assault is "especially heinous" but as my "silly" example shows that is not true.

Not to mention that filling sexual predator lists with kids who pantsed other kids or grabbed someone's butt when they were twelve diminishes the whole idea of the list in the first place.

It is really easy to take the "tough" stance on "all" sexual assault. But, I do not think that is what is best.

I don't have the answers, I don't know what is best for these kids. There is a line somewhere, and articulating that line is a lot harder than just being tough on all sexual assault.

I disagree that that there shouldn't be a tougher stance but I do agree that children require more attempts at rehab and some lighter punishment. However, as you read about the incident with my daughter who made that fraudulent call, I was all for making her understand how wrong that was with serious ramifications. And IMO, there is a vast difference between exposing one's self or patting a buttock from molestation. What this man did was molestation and what his parents did was at least as bad.

 

[dawny0826]

Look up the defintion of rape. it includes molestation, which is what this man did. And my 'opinion' is based on my own rape, my daughter's, working as a SANE nurse and counseling rape survivors. What experience do you have with this?

You've no argument from me. I acknowledge that rape and molestation can be synonymous. Let's move on from this. We're on the same page.

You're still dodging my question. Your personal anecdotes do not serve as evidence that Josh Duggar, today, is a pedophile and rapist.

I don't have enough evidence to conclude whether he is or isn't. You on the other hand, claim that he is both. Your own experiences do not substantiate this for me, unless of course, you're claiming that you and your daughter were raped by Josh Duggar.

My experience is irrelevant as is yours, to be honest. We're not talking about your experiences as a victim. We're talking about Josh Duggar & his victims.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You've no argument from me. I acknowledge that rape and molestation can be synonymous. Let's move on from this. We're on the same page.

You're still dodging my question. Your personal anecdotes do not serve as evidence that Josh Duggar, today, is a pedophile and rapist.

It is very rare that they do change. It is a sexuality. It is not chosen. However, just because someone's voices told them to kill doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences, and research into some sort of preventive programs.
I suppose that, yes, we don't actually know, but, in all reality, if he had changed their would be some sort of evidence to support it, such as extensive therapy and chemical castration. But because this situation has not been handled properly, for the sake of others it should be assumed he still is, and that he is still a potential threat.

 

[Curious George]

No sane judge, you say? Apparently you've never met a child so severely abused they have attachment disorders. I have. And apparently you've not read about children that age who have murdered or been budding serial killers in the making. The three markers of a sociopath.....killing or torturing animals, enuresis, and one other that escapes my memory at the moment. I have seen children brought to the ER multiple times and when the 'mother' brought them in, she would say 'take this...I don't want it anymore'. Those 'children' are forever lost. Sure, there's some kids that deserve liency, there's many more who dont

Oh no, I have read those cases. I was referring to the 8 year old flasher that you agreed was "silly." Certainly cases where young even prepubescent children have murdered, tortured and maimed other children make it to court as they should. But the bar is relatively low to achieve the lowest degrees of sexual assault. Perhaps you should reread my posts.

 

[Curious George]

I disagree that that there shouldn't be a tougher stance but I do agree that children require more attempts at rehab and some lighter punishment. However, as you read about the incident with my daughter who made that fraudulent call, I was all for making her understand how wrong that was with serious ramifications. And IMO, there is a vast difference between exposing one's self or patting a buttock from molestation. What this man did was molestation and what his parents did was at least as bad.

Again, you are getting caught up in the details of other cases. I will be glad to meet you there and discuss those cases, but I was trying to address overarching issues first. If we examine just the case at hand and try to suggest broad laws that apply based on the given case then we might very well end up condemning the 8 year old flasher as well. We must have a way of distinguishing the cases. What about a twelve year old girl who through coercion convinces an 8year old boy to pull down his pants. In this instance you have an age difference and coercion, two markers of sexual predation. Now do we ask for jail time and permanent registry as a sex offender?

 

[JoStories]

Oh no, I have read those cases. I was referring to the 8 year old flasher that you agreed was "silly." Certainly cases where young even prepubescent children have murdered, tortured and maimed other children make it to court as they should. But the bar is relatively low to achieve the lowest degrees of sexual assault. Perhaps you should reread my posts.

Ok, I admit that I did misread what you wrote at the beginning. I throught it read A 8 year old, not the 8 year old. So mea culpa about that one. You seem stuck on that one comment where I called your example silly. I hadn't realized you were so sensitive. An 8 year old who flashes is, IMO, not a sexual deviant. Otoh, what this man, namely Duggar, was sexually deviant. And worse, the actions of his parents were reprehensible.

 

[JoStories]

Again, you are getting caught up in the details of other cases. I will be glad to meet you there and discuss those cases, but I was trying to address overarching issues first. If we examine just the case at hand and try to suggest broad laws that apply based on the given case then we might very well end up condemning the 8 year old flasher as well. We must have a way of distinguishing the cases. What about a twelve year old girl who through coercion convinces an 8year old boy to pull down his pants. In this instance you have an age difference and coercion, two markers of sexual predation. Now do we ask for jail time and permanent registry as a sex offender?

No, and most prosecutors would ask for something for the child that was germane to whatever he or she did. I'm not an attorney, I'm an advanced practice RN. I see the aftermath in terms of the physical and psychological damage. Somehow that, IMO, is harder when you see the child has been forever changed and not in a good way. I accept that that biases me. I admit it freely. Now, what can we do to the gradation of crimes regarding sexual issues? As I said, each case must be viewed by the age of the child and what was done. I don't believe that what the parents did for Duggar was nearly enough and in many ways, ran contrary to his needs at that time. Having him talk to a cop who himself was a pedophile?.. Please! And counseling with a family member? He needed a specialist in sexual deviance. Preferably a court appointed one. Does this make us closer to the same page?