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Huckabee defends Duggars over Teenage Molestation Accusations

Curious George

Veteran Member
Hmm, there seems to be a lot of emotion in this thread...I should probably stay away, but, after reading, cannot keep from pointing out that there are conflicts in people's ideas of punishment. What should happen to a minor who commits sexual assault? Why?
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Hmm, there seems to be a lot of emotion in this thread...I should probably stay away, but, after reading, cannot keep from pointing out that there are conflicts in people's ideas of punishment. What should happen to a minor who commits sexual assault? Why?
Long term counseling, because he needs to understand that his behavior is not acceptable and look at himself for why he has such tendencies. Legal standards because it is against the law and he needs to make his payment in justice for that. Family counseling because this family clearly has no idea what the long term effects of abuse can be.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Long term counseling, because he needs to understand that his behavior is not acceptable and look at himself for why he has such tendencies. Legal standards because it is against the law and he needs to make his payment in justice for that. Family counseling because this family clearly has no idea what the long term effects of abuse can be.
I am assuming you are using him and he pronouns in reference to the person in this case...I assume this because of the mention of "this family." But given that child on child sexual abuse constitutes a very large percentage of sexual abuse, I was speaking about consequences in general.

I did not understand your "legal standards" comment.

What are the varying degrees of sexual assault, and should the consequences for sexual assault vary based on these degrees? If so, how so?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
The mind:

Conscious
Subconscious
Unconscious

Science doesn't have an answer for the subjective mind. A subjective observation is based on how an individual perceives reality, rather than reality itself with science. It's more viewed as the subconscious mind. Correct me if I am wrong.

Scripture had it right thousands of years ago, hidden beneath the metaphors and without the words we see and commonly use today.

Adam: conscious(neocortex)
Eve:subconscious(Limbic system)
Serpent/snake/devil/satan: unconscious/ego (reptilian brain)

The conscious impregnates the subconscious with a child(seed of thought, seed of knowledge) and is stored in the subconscious which births our reality(mother of all living) There is enmity between the subconscious and the unconscious mind as the individual reality and ego conflict.

Freud explained the unconscious mind relatively well to refer to a part of the mind that cannot be known by the conscious mind, and includes socially unacceptable ideas, wishes and desires, traumatic memories and painful emotions that have been repressed.

You'd be correct about the conscious and unconscious being opposite.
The conscious and subconscious would be opposite not in a sense they disagree with each other, but because they are dual, male and female, have opposite roles. Opposite energies. Positive and negative.
I think you are wrong about the subconscious mind. There is no negative connotation to it, although, obviously, there can be some pretty bad stuff hidden there. There can, however, just as easily be good stuff hidden in the subconscious mind as well. The subconscious mind is basically the part of the mind that works mechanically, without agency. It is certainly not something that should be described as "negative", as there would be no reason to do so. There are negative and positive aspects of the subconscious mind, just as there are negative and positive aspects of the conscious mind.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
"We aspies." Are you implying that all people with asperger's are the same? Or at least are the same in that they do not "have empathy?"

I hope not.
As it is understood by most people, yes. As I have said, it isn't an intuition or just knowing it, like most people, but a completely different route to understanding.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
As it is understood by most people, yes. As I have said, it isn't an intuition or just knowing it, like most people, but a completely different route to understanding.
Hmm, I think it is less than productive to suggest all people with asperger's lack empathy, simply because you believe you lack empathy. I am trying to wrap my head around how you can think it is logically consistent to hold that view along with the view that another person cannot understand something unless he or she has experienced it. After all, aspergers for you is different than aspergers for so-and-so, thus (according to your reasoning) you cannot speak for that person. How can you say he or she doesn't have empathy. Moreover, how can you say what empathy is from someone without aspergers. Certainly, you can listen to how empathy is described, but you can't truly know what it is like to have empathy (according to your reasoning), so you couldn't know whether others had it or not. The most you could ever say is that you personally do not experience feelings like those associated with empathy.

Now, the autistic spectrum certainly describes a difference based on social and emotional characteristics, but I am pretty darn sure that "lack of empathy" is not a requisite for a diagnosis. While an unawareness of social and emotional cues may indicate a social or emotional difference such as the difference described by the autism spectrum, this in no way means people with aspergers or people with any other asd must lack empathy.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Hmm, there seems to be a lot of emotion in this thread...I should probably stay away, but, after reading, cannot keep from pointing out that there are conflicts in people's ideas of punishment. What should happen to a minor who commits sexual assault? Why?

My suggestion is to treat a minor who commits sexual assault similarly to a minor who kidnaps and tortures another human being.

They carry roughly the same impact. Physical scars may or may not be present, but psychologically traumatic in so much as violating another persons body and clearly against their consent.

Minors who commit such acts IMO are in need of psychiatric counseling, as I suspect there is a level of psychopathic tendencies present in the need to harm others.

Manual labor develops routine and physical discipline, but it does not address underlying psychological disorders.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
Hmm, there seems to be a lot of emotion in this thread...I should probably stay away, but, after reading, cannot keep from pointing out that there are conflicts in people's ideas of punishment. What should happen to a minor who commits sexual assault? Why?

It depends on the nature of the sexual assault. But they need something beyond working at the home of a family friend and getting a stern talking to by someone with an interest in child pornography.

A 15 year old boy who molests a prepubescent girl (or anyone without their consent) may or may not have problems down the line. I do not think that they should be branded sex offenders for life based on that alone, but they do need some intervention and treatment.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
I think you are wrong about the subconscious mind. There is no negative connotation to it, although, obviously, there can be some pretty bad stuff hidden there. There can, however, just as easily be good stuff hidden in the subconscious mind as well. The subconscious mind is basically the part of the mind that works mechanically, without agency. It is certainly not something that should be described as "negative", as there would be no reason to do so. There are negative and positive aspects of the subconscious mind, just as there are negative and positive aspects of the conscious mind.

I agree, friend. When speaking of negative, referring to energy. Polarities. I should have specified.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
I am assuming you are using him and he pronouns in reference to the person in this case...I assume this because of the mention of "this family." But given that child on child sexual abuse constitutes a very large percentage of sexual abuse, I was speaking about consequences in general.

I did not understand your "legal standards" comment.

What are the varying degrees of sexual assault, and should the consequences for sexual assault vary based on these degrees? If so, how so?
Yes, there are some more heinous than others but IMO, they all demand prison time. All should be registered sex offenders permanently. All should have to listen to the candid stories of what abuse has done to those abused. And in some cases, it should require either physical or chemical castration, particularly in cases where the person is severely traumatized.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Yes, there are some more heinous than others but IMO, they all demand prison time. All should be registered sex offenders permanently. All should have to listen to the candid stories of what abuse has done to those abused. And in some cases, it should require either physical or chemical castration, particularly in cases where the person is severely traumatized.

All is pretty extreme. Do you mind sharing which state you live in? Failing that, pick a state that at some point you have thought of living.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
He was 15 when he molested children as young as 6 or7. That is not curious behavior, it's text book pedophilia. And I would suggest you look up the defintion of rape. Rape is not just penetration, it's also molestation, which is what this person did. If anyone does something this heinous, he is a sexual predator and unfit to raise children, IMO.

The "text book" defines pedophilia as an almost exclusive attraction to prepubescent children. Though, I don't disagree that his actions were abusive, I'd like to know what evidence you have to support that Duggar is engaging in such acts now. I'm curious as to what insight you have into HIS psyche to prove that he is a text book pedophile. I don't have enough evidence to draw such conclusions either way.

I didn't argue that rape isn't a form of molestation or that rape in and of itself isn't forcible. Rape is often primarily characterized by forced penetration or forced abuse. I've just not seen him accused of rape in any of the articles that I've read. I'm curious as to why you're using this terminology. I'm not stating that he hasn't been accused of rape. This is the first that I've heard him termed a rapist.

I'm asking you for evidence to support why you've stated what you have. Your opinion does not suffice as evidence.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
My suggestion is to treat a minor who commits sexual assault similarly to a minor who kidnaps and tortures another human being.

They carry roughly the same impact. Physical scars may or may not be present, but psychologically traumatic in so much as violating another persons body and clearly against their consent.

Minors who commit such acts IMO are in need of psychiatric counseling, as I suspect there is a level of psychopathic tendencies present in the need to harm others.

Manual labor develops routine and physical discipline, but it does not address underlying psychological disorders.
The first statement seems focused on the victim while the last seems focused in the offender. If rehabilitation is our goal, especially with juveniles, how much should we consider the victim?

While some sexual assault might rival kidnapping and torture there is also assault that does not.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I don't know Duggar nor the particulars of his case. But yes of course, given the right circumstances, a person should be forgiven of something terrible they did as a 15 year old.
I'm fine with that, I guess, but he needs to be in therapy and under constant supervision. He raped his 9 year old sister for Christ's sake. More importantly, the parents covered it up and put their children in tremendous risk. They should be ridiculed.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Hmm, I think it is less than productive to suggest all people with asperger's lack empathy, simply because you believe you lack empathy. I am trying to wrap my head around how you can think it is logically consistent to hold that view along with the view that another person cannot understand something unless he or she has experienced it. After all, aspergers for you is different than aspergers for so-and-so, thus (according to your reasoning) you cannot speak for that person. How can you say he or she doesn't have empathy. Moreover, how can you say what empathy is from someone without aspergers. Certainly, you can listen to how empathy is described, but you can't truly know what it is like to have empathy (according to your reasoning), so you couldn't know whether others had it or not. The most you could ever say is that you personally do not experience feelings like those associated with empathy.

Now, the autistic spectrum certainly describes a difference based on social and emotional characteristics, but I am pretty darn sure that "lack of empathy" is not a requisite for a diagnosis. While an unawareness of social and emotional cues may indicate a social or emotional difference such as the difference described by the autism spectrum, this in no way means people with aspergers or people with any other asd must lack empathy.
Having Asperger's impairs areas of social functioning that are required for empathy. What he have is more of an understanding, because we have to learn so much about social ways, rather than genuine empathy.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Having Asperger's impairs areas of social functioning that are required for empathy. What he have is more of an understanding, because we have to learn so much about social ways, rather than genuine empathy.
I am of the opinion "if you know one person with autism, then you know one person with autism."
How about where you source something that says people with aspergers cannot have empathy?
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
I'm fine with that, I guess, but he needs to be in therapy and under constant supervision. He raped his 9 year old sister for Christ's sake. More importantly, the parents covered it up and put their children in tremendous risk. They should be ridiculed.

Perhaps I should study the case before I comment. I don't find it hard to believe that a 15 year old boy can be messed up enough to do this, and yet be totally different at 35 with no need of supervision or therapy. If the parents put their children at risk, I agree that was a big mistake. I see no reason to resurrect such a terrible situation if the person has reformed and moved on. I think the footer to my posts applies well here.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Perhaps I should study the case before I comment. I don't find it hard to believe that a 15 year old boy can be messed up enough to do this, and yet be totally different at 35 with no need of supervision or therapy. If the parents put their children at risk, I agree that was a big mistake. I see no reason to resurrect such a terrible situation if the person has reformed and moved on. I think the footer to my posts applies well here.
I don't agree. I think punishment and/or ridicule is how we make sure something like this doesn't happen again. If we fail to acknowledge the horribly irresponsible nature of these parents, other fundamentalists will think it isn't that big of a deal. We need to make an example out of parents like this who disregard their children's safety in the interest of their religion/faith.
 
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