Humans love better than God

[Willamena]

I was welcomed by the most heart-warming and uncondtional love as he told me that he didn't even care; he was on my side no matter what. Bros for life.

Why can't God do this?

Um... in what way doesn't he?

Wouldn't the world be a better place if we all loved each other, no matter what? What good is a God who can't love as much as his creations?

I'm of the opinion that God does love as much as any other of his creations, which is to say that we hold an image of "God that loves" as much as hold an image of "he/she loves me".

 

[waitasec]

It seems to me that God sending Jesus to undeservedly die on a cross in order to save the mankind (including the people who nailed him up there) was a fairly big act of love (on both their parts.) I don't recall hearing of a human showing that kind of love. From this perspective I'd argue that God loves better than humans do.

clearly you have already forgotten the selfless acts of the nuclear responders in japan...

 

[waitasec]

I agree, but how many of them sacrificed themselves for the eternal benefit of those who were trying to kill them?

it's not a sacrifice knowing you'd come out peachy in the end, now is it?

I don't think the two are comparable, or if they were to be compared, the act of Jesus would seem more selfless, and therefore "better."

you're right...
god is all knowing
and man is not

If He's not real (and therefore is not capable of loving "better" than your cousin, as He doesn't exist,) then this "debate" thread has no point. In order to debate the topic of God not loving as well as humans do, it must be assumed that both humans and God exist.

you obviously have never heard the term, "for argument sake..."

If you think the God I'm referring to isn't real, then perhaps you could clarify to which God your OP refers (although based on your 2nd post it seems you are talking about the God in the Bible, and we are in fact both referring to the same God.)

you either have no clue about the argument he is making...or you're trying to change the subject...which is it?

I think it highly unlikely that God would accept the accounts of people like Hitler and Pol Pot (or anyone else who has ever disobeyed God, including myself, along with the rest of humanity) if when we face judgement we were to try to excuse our behaviour by saying to God "You made me do it."

but according to your bible, if they professed jesus as god, your gonna be hanging out with them for an eternity, congratulations...

 

[Where Is God]

Ummmm....Not at all sure that it has been demonstrated/confirmed that God "cannot/does not" "do this".

Again...a propisition yet to be established/demonstrated.

I would agree. God in and of itself is completely impossible to prove or disprove.

In regards to other posts, my point is that God sends non-believers like myself to an eternal place of unfathomable suffering and cruelty. He decides to send us there. If you would argue that we have free will to go there or not here are my main points.

1. God defined what sin is. If he had not, we wouldn't sin. Simply as that.

2. God has a "plan." If he truely is God, everything will always go his way.

3. God made hell.

4. God made the rules that regulate who does and does not go to hell.

If you combine points 2,3,4, you can clearly see that God is perfectly aware of who he will and will not send to Hell, even before they are born.

This is hypothetically speaking of course, being that there is no actual God.

 

[Wombat]

In regards to other posts, my point is that God sends non-believers like myself to an eternal place of unfathomable suffering and cruelty.

Yea.....I get that you have that impression/understanding....but I'm asking on what basis/scripture?

He decides to send us there.

Who says?

1. God defined what sin is. If he had not, we wouldn't sin. Simply as that..

Now...I can't confirm it...but I heartell "sin" is an Aramaic Archery term literally meaning- To miss the mark. Which would imply not that someone is a bad archer and should give up...but that they 'missed' on that ocasion and should keep practicing... (An 'evil' is said to be the point at which the miss the target arrow lands).
This may not be historicaly/linguisticaly accurate.....but it might still be 'true to target'

2. God has a "plan." If he truely is God, everything will always go his way...

Hmmm...yea...but that includes us being allowed to "go our way"- fire our free will and miss the mark.

3. God made hell.

Did He?.........And it's a >place<?.....a location?

4. God made the rules that regulate who does and does not go to hell..

Can you please quote these "rules" and their consequential link to hell?

 

[waitasec]

Yea.....I get that you have that impression/understanding....but I'm asking on what basis/scripture?



Who says?

matthew 13:42, 25:41
mark 9:43-48
luke 16:24
revelation 20:13-15, 21:8

Now...I can't confirm it...but I heartell "sin" is an Aramaic Archery term literally meaning- To miss the mark. Which would imply not that someone is a bad archer and should give up...but that they 'missed' on that ocasion and should keep practicing... (An 'evil' is said to be the point at which the miss the target arrow lands).
This may not be historicaly/linguisticaly accurate.....but it might still be 'true to target'

then sin is making mistakes
"an error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness"
so surely as a parent would understand the shortcomings of a child...for we will forever be gods "children" because gods wisdom and understanding is so much more higher than ours, we could never reach his level...god would never hold these 'mistakes' against us. however that is not the case as i have given you a few scriptures that says he would.

Hmmm...yea...but that includes us being allowed to "go our way"- fire our free will and miss the mark.

there is no freewill if god has a plan for everything...

Did He?.........And it's a >place<?.....a location?


Can you please quote these "rules" and their consequential link to hell?

it's in the scriptures i presented

 

[Wombat]

matthew 13:42,

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Just have time to deal with one (or perhaps you could save me/us time by confirming they all do/don't(?) fit the same catagory?)

Looks to me like the reason for the "furnace of fire... wailing and gnashing of teeth" (established at begining of verse as "parable") is the "things that offend, and them which do iniquity".

To me/my reading that means those who comit iniquity- "genocide, rape, terrorism" end up "wailing and gnashing teeth"....no mention of non believers being in the "furnace of fire"

 

[waitasec]

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Just have time to deal with one (or perhaps you could save me/us time by confirming they all do/don't(?) fit the same catagory?)

Looks to me like the reason for the "furnace of fire... wailing and gnashing of teeth" (established at begining of verse as "parable") is the "things that offend, and them which do iniquity".

To me/my reading that means those who comit iniquity- "genocide, rape, terrorism" end up "wailing and gnashing teeth"....no mention of non believers being in the "furnace of fire"

this is the parable:
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

the parable is explained
....13:41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

i see it as believers and unbelievers are to live among eachother and when the rapture, or whatever...time of death...the time of reaping comes to pass...that is when they will be divided...

 

[BruceDLimber]

He doesn't love them all enough to not send then to hell,...

In fact, individuals send THEMSELVES to hell by their own choices and actions, not God!

But God, in His infinite Love and Mercy, doesn't allow this state to be permanent. I quote the Baha'i scriptures:

"When they [men] are delivered through the light of faith from the darkness of these vices, and become illuminated with the radiance of the sun of reality, and ennobled with all the virtues, they esteem this the greatest reward, and they know it to be the true paradise. In the same way they consider that the spiritual punishment ... is to be subjected to the world of nature, to be veiled from God, to be brutal and ignorant, to fall into carnal lusts, to be absorbed in animal frailties, to be characterized with dark qualities ... these are the greatest punishments and tortures....

"...The rewards of the other world are the perfections and the peace obtained in the spiritual worlds after leaving this world ... the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world ... consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favours, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.

"The wealth of the other world is nearness to God. Consequently it is certain that those who are near the Divine Court are allowed to intercede, and this intercession is approved by God....

"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice; for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have the power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God.... Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications.

"Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state.... There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned.

"Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world."
&#8213;Some Answered Questions, pp. 260-274 passim.

Best!

Bruce

 

[waitasec]

you don't need god to recognize and overcome vices...
just sayin'

 

[Where Is God]

In fact, individuals send THEMSELVES to hell by their own choices and actions, not God!

But God, in His infinite Love and Mercy, doesn't allow this state to be permanent. I quote the Baha'i scriptures:

"When they [men] are delivered through the light of faith from the darkness of these vices, and become illuminated with the radiance of the sun of reality, and ennobled with all the virtues, they esteem this the greatest reward, and they know it to be the true paradise. In the same way they consider that the spiritual punishment ... is to be subjected to the world of nature, to be veiled from God, to be brutal and ignorant, to fall into carnal lusts, to be absorbed in animal frailties, to be characterized with dark qualities ... these are the greatest punishments and tortures....

"...The rewards of the other world are the perfections and the peace obtained in the spiritual worlds after leaving this world ... the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world ... consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favours, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.

"The wealth of the other world is nearness to God. Consequently it is certain that those who are near the Divine Court are allowed to intercede, and this intercession is approved by God....

"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice; for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have the power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God.... Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications.

"Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state.... There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned.

"Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world."
&#8213;Some Answered Questions, pp. 260-274 passim.

Best!

Bruce

It doesn't make sense Bruce! I don't want to go to hell! So how exactly do I send myself there? He sends me there. It was his choice as to what qualifies who worthy of heaven or not. He choose to exclude me from this.

 

[Where Is God]

Can you please quote these "rules" and their consequential link to hell?

I don't know what the exact verse is(someone find it?) but I was taught that anyone who doesn't accept God and Jesus as their savior and repent from their sin, they spend eternity in hell. Thats's the rule.

 

[Riverwolf]

It doesn't make sense Bruce! I don't want to go to hell! So how exactly do I send myself there? He sends me there. It was his choice as to what qualifies who worthy of heaven or not. He choose to exclude me from this.

Have you heard of the concept that Hell is a state of mind, and not a place?

We often do harm to ourselves, causing ourselves terrible suffering, in the name of brief pleasures. For example, I want to be healthy. But I have trouble eating because I have a strong sense of taste which discourages me from trying new things (I don't eat nearly enough vegetables), so it's really hard for me to develop a healthy diet, especially since I'm going vegetarian. But I'm a relatively minor case.

What of all the people who futilely attempt to overcome moments of depression through excessive drinking/doing drugs? Wouldn't an addiction to something so utterly harmful, at least in large doses, be a form of hell? But the person who tried to overcome depression through that method didn't want to end up in that state.

 

[Quagmire]

i see it as believers and unbelievers are to live among eachother and when the rapture, or whatever...time of death...the time of reaping comes to pass...that is when they will be divided...

To echo Wombat's question: why do you see the parable as a reference to "believers vs unbelievers"? That isn't apparent in the verses you quoted.

I don't know what the exact verse is(someone find it?) but I was taught that anyone who doesn't accept God and Jesus as their savior and repent from their sin, they spend eternity in hell. Thats's the rule.

(emphasis mine)

Then maybe you should go ask whoever taught you this why they believe it.

 

[Luminous]

Like: as i know that "He" has blood in "His" body

Blood is a statistical and biologically demonstrateable assumption. how many souls do you have? had you had? how much does it weigh, what are the characteristics of its structure as opposed to "Hababaloo"?

 

[Luminous]

The kind of love that God expresses is unconditional. It is a love that no human may ever understand and practice.

give me the difference between unconditional and indifferent.

 

[Luminous]

Where is God: Lord, if by some unfathomable chance you do exist: I'm an Atheist.

True God: Child, I don't even care. *Hugz*
Bad Yehova: You'll burn in HELL you DISRESPECTFUL *******!!
Good Yehove: No prob son, atheists can follow all the commandments easy.
Jesus: WHAT? WORSHIP ME!!! IM SOOOO GOOD!!!! HOW COULD YOU?? MAKE ME YOUR IDOL TO GOD!!! Mom told me he's my biological father!!!

 

[Luminous]

It doesn't make sense Bruce! I don't want to go to hell! So how exactly do I send myself there? He sends me there. It was his choice as to what qualifies who worthy of heaven or not. He choose to exclude me from this.

It's because you insult bad Yehova by not thinking he exists. he tried saving you. It's like if your friend said: Yo Where is God, You don't even think I exist, **** you.
Perfectly understandable: if you didn't believe in your friend, he would let you suffer forever in which ever pit you threw yourself in. That's what a perfect thing always does. Just tells you not to jump, then shrugs and sighs.

 

[waitasec]

To echo Wombat's question: why do you see the parable as a reference to "believers vs unbelievers"? That isn't apparent in the verses you quoted.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.&#8217;&#8221;

the weeds represents the unbelievers and the wheat represents the believers..
this is implying hell in the parable...
he goes into detail of what happens to the weeds, but doesn't go into detail what happens to the wheat...
if it doesn't mean hell then what is it then?

 

[Morpheus]

It doesn't make sense Bruce! I don't want to go to hell! So how exactly do I send myself there? He sends me there. It was his choice as to what qualifies who worthy of heaven or not. He choose to exclude me from this.

It makes perfect sense. You send yourself there by the choices you make in this life. If you don't want to go to "hell" - wherever or whatever you believe that is - lets presume a bad place - then making choices which demonstrate an understanding and giving of love should be sufficient. But we should define love. I am talking about love for everything and everyone - without conditions attached. Pure, unconditional love. We will never be perfect in our demonstration of this love but as long as we strive towards it with a pure heart, we are on the path to the source of all love.
Hell, is not a place but a state of absence of love. Meditate on this state and you will see it is "like the nethermost fire".
Look into your own heart - what do you see? Do you see hatred or love? OK, there may be both, but which is dominant, which do you want to guide your life? Ponder this and you will know what choices you will make and to where they will lead you.