I am a non-believer and have some questions

[Valerian]

Read all my posts in this topic because it addresses that very question.

Well I might suggest that the concept of hell is never going to sit right with human understanding or lack thereof, and you are using that as come convenience to ignore all that has been given on goodness, right judgment and mercy by the Christian God. It won’t fly. (imo)

God says “My ways are not your ways” and yet you demand all His ways be known before you will accept any of it.

I also suggest if you knew more about purgatory, a lot more, all of God’s justice and mercy might come together much better for you explaining all these different kinds of people with different opportunities (or lack thereof) and how it all works out. Makes no sense to me to be some kind of defiant agitator all one’s life when so much of it has been revealed. You will die. You will live on…. somewhere.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Well I might suggest that the concept of hell is never going to sit right with human understanding or lack thereof, and you are using that as come convenience to ignore all that has been given on goodness, right judgment and mercy by the Christian God. It won’t fly. (imo)

God says “My ways are not your ways” and yet you demand all His ways be known before you will accept any of it.

I also suggest if you knew more about purgatory, a lot more, all of God’s justice and mercy might come together much better for you explaining all these different kinds of people with different opportunities (or lack thereof) and how it all works out. Makes no sense to me to be some kind of defiant agitator all one’s life when so much of it has been revealed. You will die. You will live on…. somewhere.

All I have to say right now is just this. That is, it is all just your own personal opinion that the moral standards of the Christian God are all loving, all just, and morally righteous. They are not to me at all. If this God exists, then not only does he have to convince me he is real, but also that his moral standard is all loving, all just, and morally righteous.

As I said before, my honest open mindset has me open to the skeptics as well as believers. I searched through the claimed evidence, arguments, and debates and my honest open minded mindset has to lead me to be undecided. But my disagreement with God's moral nature has me leaning a bit towards Christianity being nonsense. If a loving parent told me:

"So I see you didn't believe in me and did not serve and dedicate your life to me. I did all these wonderful things for you and I have made a loving sacrifice for you. But that is fine because you are going to hell to suffer for eternity for your lack of believe and your lack of servitude. I respect your decision in condemning yourself to hell and so that is where you will go. I will just leave you there for eternity and will never get you out. That, on my part, is love, justice, and morally right."

There is no way I would ever agree that such a quote is an all loving, all just, and morally righteous parent and nor do I think any sane human being would agree either. To agree would mean this person would have to be absurd, asinine, and daft.

 

[Valerian]

All I have to say right now is just this. That is, it is all just your own personal opinion that the moral standards of the Christian God are all loving, all just, and morally righteous. They are not to me at all. If this God exists, then not only does he have to convince me he is real, but also that his moral standard is all loving, all just, and morally righteous.

As I said before, my honest open mindset has me open to the skeptics as well as believers. I searched through the claimed evidence, arguments, and debates and my honest open minded mindset has to lead me to be undecided. But my disagreement with God's moral nature has me leaning a bit towards Christianity being nonsense. If a loving parent told me:

"So I see you didn't believe in me and did not serve and dedicate your life to me. I did all these wonderful things for you and I have made a loving sacrifice for you. But that is fine because you are going to hell to suffer for eternity for your lack of believe and your lack of servitude. I respect your decision in condemning yourself to hell and so that is where you will go. I will just leave you there for eternity and will never get you out. That, on my part, is love, justice, and morally right."

There is no way I would ever agree that such a quote is an all loving, all just, and morally righteous parent and nor do I think any sane human being would agree either. To agree would mean this person would have to be absurd, asinine, and daft.

Well (imo) I find some of your premises to be totally flawed.

Such as this >>> “So in order for people to be convinced of my existence and of my son's sacrifice, I will just throw some things out there. Namely, the bible that I know many honest open minded people will not be convinced of. But if they still don't believe, then that is just too bad.”

And this >>> “Especially for little children who die early and other people in other areas of the world who never got the chance to believe in me. I will not try to convince them any more than this even though I am an all powerful God who is more than capable of trying to do so. So that is all I am going to offer as a means of conviction. So take it or leave it. If you are not convinced and end up in hell, then that is just too bad and I am just going to have to leave you there to suffer for eternity."

When you say “I will just throw some things out there” what is that? You mean like some real “sketchy” manifestations of God’s existence but none of that convinces you?... and that is all He has revealed? Exactly how many miracles do you insist upon before you acknowledge their reality? How big of a miracle do you demand, does it have to be witnessed by one million before you tell God that will do? What else do you demand of him for your allegiance? You want a promise every evil person who ever lived will not be punished in the way God chooses but how you choose?

And where do you come off telling us or God that He is sending children and those who never heard of Jesus to hell? You going to stand on such insanity for your defense? Of course you also must be insisting all the eye witnesses to miracles of great magnitude are liars, and all saints of the Church who performed miracles and claimed a personal encounter with God are liars, and all the great works of charity of the Church over the centuries is meaningless. Really, I question the sincerity of your motives. I do not think you really want to believe in this God.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Well (imo) I find some of your premises to be totally flawed.

Such as this >>> “So in order for people to be convinced of my existence and of my son's sacrifice, I will just throw some things out there. Namely, the bible that I know many honest open minded people will not be convinced of. But if they still don't believe, then that is just too bad.”

And this >>> “Especially for little children who die early and other people in other areas of the world who never got the chance to believe in me. I will not try to convince them any more than this even though I am an all powerful God who is more than capable of trying to do so. So that is all I am going to offer as a means of conviction. So take it or leave it. If you are not convinced and end up in hell, then that is just too bad and I am just going to have to leave you there to suffer for eternity."

When you say “I will just throw some things out there” what is that? You mean like some real “sketchy” manifestations of God’s existence but none of that convinces you?... and that is all He has revealed? Exactly how many miracles do you insist upon before you acknowledge their reality? How big of a miracle do you demand, does it have to be witnessed by one million before you tell God that will do? What else do you demand of him for your allegiance? You want a promise every evil person who ever lived will not be punished in the way God chooses but how you choose?

And where do you come off telling us or God that He is sending children and those who never heard of Jesus to hell? You going to stand on such insanity for your defense? Of course you also must be insisting all the eye witnesses to miracles of great magnitude are liars, and all saints of the Church who performed miracles and claimed a personal encounter with God are liars, and all the great works of charity of the Church over the centuries is meaningless. Really, I question the sincerity of your motives. I do not think you really want to believe in this God.

What you fail to understand here is that I have an open mind the whole 9 yards. There never comes a point where I become convinced by the skeptics who say that there is no evidence of God's existence and neither does there come a point where I become convinced that the believers are right who say that there is all the evidence in the world of God's existence. So my lack of belief is genuine. I am a very open minded person.

So it would be absurd, asinine, and daft for me to be held accountable for such a lack of belief which was genuine and to, furthermore, hold me accountable for not dedicating my life to a holy way of life that God wanted me to live when I did not believe in him in the first place. You might claim that my lack of belief is not genuine and that I am just lying to you and to myself, but there can be no debate on that issue because this is all a matter of personal subjective experience. You are not in my mind to know that I am not lying to myself. I am only in my own mind and, therefore, only I can truly know whether I am lying or being genuine. I know I am being genuine.

 

[allfoak]

@MattMVS5
Find your answers yet?
You said you came here to debate but you are unwilling to hear all of the evidence.
I don't think your looking for answers, i think you are looking for an argument.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

@MattMVS5
Find your answers yet?
You said you came here to debate but you are unwilling to hear all of the evidence.
I don't think your looking for answers, i think you are looking for an argument.

In terms of the evidence, my decision has been final on that before I even had this debate. It is undecidable to me since I have an open mind the whole way through when it comes to looking at the claimed evidence by skeptics and believers. But what I am arguing and debating here is the moral standards of the Christian God somehow being all loving, all just, and morally righteous. I completely disagree with this and wanted to have a debate about that.

I have no interest in debating the evidence since I have given up on the evidence and looking into the evidence means nothing to me now. However, what is morally right means a lot to me and I wanted to have a debate about that with Christian believers as well as other believers who believe in such a God where there is a hell and if you don't obey and serve this God, you will go to hell and said God will never get you out. The idea that believers would think this is a morally righteous and holy God is completely asinine, absurd, and daft to me and I wanted to have a debate about that.

 

[Valerian]

What you fail to understand here is that I have an open mind the whole 9 yards. There never comes a point where I become convinced by the skeptics who say that there is no evidence of God's existence and neither does there come a point where I become convinced that the believers are right who say that there is all the evidence in the world of God's existence. So my lack of belief is genuine. I am a very open minded person.

So it would be absurd, asinine, and daft for me to be held accountable for such a lack of belief which was genuine and to, furthermore, hold me accountable for not dedicating my life to a holy way of life that God wanted me to live when I did not believe in him in the first place. You might claim that my lack of belief is not genuine and that I am just lying to you and to myself, but there can be no debate on that issue because this is all a matter of personal subjective experience. You are not in my mind to know that I am not lying to myself. I am only in my own mind and, therefore, only I can truly know whether I am lying or being genuine. I know I am being genuine.

Yes, thanks, I got all that. But some of my questions above were more specific which you chose to not respond to. Your prerogative.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Yes, thanks, I got all that. But some of my questions above were more specific which you chose to not respond to. Your prerogative.

I hope I am answering your questions now here in this very post. I thought I did in my previous post, but I guess I didn't. So I will answer here by saying that other religious beliefs will also have their claimed miracles, evidence, etc. and it all seems very plausible, but that does not make any of it true. There are plenty of other things in this world that also has its claimed evidence and whatnot, but that does not make any of it true either. There are plenty of things in this world that sound and appear very plausible, but that does not make them so either.

 

[allfoak]

In terms of the evidence, my decision has been final on that before I even had this debate. It is undecidable to me since I have an open mind the whole way through when it comes to looking at the claimed evidence by skeptics and believers. But what I am arguing and debating here is the moral standards of the Christian God somehow being all loving, all just, and morally righteous. I completely disagree with this and wanted to have a debate about that.

I have no interest in debating the evidence since I have given up on the evidence and looking into the evidence means nothing to me now. However, what is morally right means a lot to me and I wanted to have a debate about that with Christian believers as well as other believers who believe in such a God where there is a hell and if you don't obey and serve this God, you will go to hell and said God will never get you out. The idea that believers would think this is a morally righteous and holy God is completely asinine, absurd, and daft to me and I wanted to have a debate about that.

I am not a Christian.
All i can do is tell you that i left Christianity a very long time ago over the issue of hell and other things that seemed unjust.

 

[Valerian]

I hope I am answering your questions now here in this very post. I thought I did in my previous post, but I guess I didn't. So I will answer here by saying that other religious beliefs will also have their claimed miracles, evidence, etc. and it all seems very plausible, but that does not make any of it true. There are plenty of other things in this world that also has its claimed evidence and whatnot, but that does not make any of it true either. There are plenty of things in this world that sound and appear very plausible, but that does not make them so either.

Fine. You are satisfied with your quest and your honesty.

I, personally, find your answer above to be terribly lacking, and even a real sign of disinterest. But that is just my opinion. (i.e. "miracles prove nothing" and yet, you cannot answer what will convince you.)

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Fine. You are satisfied with your quest and your honesty.

I, personally, find your answer above to be terribly lacking, and even a real sign of disinterest. But that is just my opinion. (i.e. "miracles prove nothing" and yet, you cannot answer what will convince you.)

What would convince me is if I kept on getting strange and bizarre signs in my personal life that there is no way to explain in naturalistic terms such as if my pillow spontaneously filled up with blood. It would not prove to me the Christian God is real because it could be Satan or some bad karma just trying to scare me, but it would at least leave me much more open to the possibility of the Christian God.

 

[Valerian]

What would convince me is if I kept on getting strange and bizarre signs in my personal life that there is no way to explain in naturalistic terms such as if my pillow spontaneously filled up with blood. It would not prove to me the Christian God is real because it could be Satan or some bad karma just trying to scare me, but it would at least leave me much more open to the possibility of the Christian God.

Your problem (if I may be blunt, not rude) is that you refuse to believe millions of people over a thousand different incidences. You think they are all delusional or lying, and consequently you may think that takes you off the hook.

You are not alone.

But it is a very weak position, imo. The miracles at Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, Akita, Japan, Zeitoun, Egypt, The Shroud of Turin, Catholic exorcisms, and many others well documented ---- they have no rivals in the pagan religion world. Nor are all the thousands of eye witnesses lying!

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Your problem (if I may be blunt, not rude) is that you refuse to believe millions of people over a thousand different incidences. You think they are all delusional or lying, and consequently you may think that takes you off the hook.

You are not alone.

But it is a very weak position, imo. The miracles at Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, Akita, Japan, Zeitoun, Egypt, The Shroud of Turin, Catholic exorcisms, and many others well documented ---- they have no rivals in the pagan religion world. Nor are all the thousands of eye witnesses lying!

I never said they are delusional or lying. I said that I am open to the possibility that they are telling the truth as well as the possibility that it is all not true and has a natural explanation. I just think you need to keep an open mind to the skeptics and give them more and more of a chance the whole 9 yards and I think the skeptics need to do the same as well when looking at paranormal and supernatural claims.

 

[allfoak]

What would convince me is if I kept on getting strange and bizarre signs in my personal life that there is no way to explain in naturalistic terms such as if my pillow spontaneously filled up with blood. It would not prove to me the Christian God is real because it could be Satan or some bad karma just trying to scare me, but it would at least leave me much more open to the possibility of the Christian God.

We get signs everyday, all day.
It is called cause and effect.
It is just a matter of changing one's perspective.
Our perspective is what becomes our reality.

 

[Valerian]

I never said they are delusional or lying. I said that I am open to the possibility that they are telling the truth as well as the possibility that it is all not true and has a natural explanation. I just think you need to keep an open mind to the skeptics and give them more and more of a chance the whole 9 yards and I think the skeptics need to do the same as well when looking at paranormal and supernatural claims.

>>I never said they are delusional or lying. I said that I am open to the possibility that they are telling the truth as well as the possibility that it is all not true and has a natural explanation.

What are you waiting for to complete your own investigation? (Again, it is why I find your position to be insincere.)

And, no, I am not interested in me, personally, leaving an open mind on this forever. God is not asking us to sit on the fence until every question we can come up with is answered. He has revealed enough. There is no need for faith to accept the glaring obvious truths. Faith is only for those things prayed for or hoped for later. It is not what my beliefs are based on.
Based on a myriad of historical evidence, Jesus is quite convincing without ever having to open His Book, imo.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

We get signs everyday, all day.
It is called cause and effect.
It is just a matter of changing one's perspective.
Our perspective is what becomes our reality.

The everyday signs that we see such as, for example, the number '666' popping up in our daily lives is not evidence because that could just be a coincidence. But the signs I've mentioned that would really leave me an open mind towards the Christian God is what I've mentioned before with my pillow spontaneously filling up with blood.

>>I never said they are delusional or lying. I said that I am open to the possibility that they are telling the truth as well as the possibility that it is all not true and has a natural explanation.

What are you waiting for to complete your own investigation? (Again, it is why I find your position to be insincere.)

And, no, I am not interested in me, personally, leaving an open mind on this forever. God is not asking us to sit on the fence until every question we can come up with is answered. He has revealed enough. There is no need for faith to accept the glaring obvious truths. Faith is only for those things prayed for or hoped for later. It is not what my beliefs are based on.
Based on a myriad of historical evidence, Jesus is quite convincing without ever opening His book.

My position is sincere. However, I have grown tired of trying to figure this whole thing out and looking and searching into all the claimed evidence to find out the truth. I am interested in composing and I am not going to waste my life searching for the truth. I have my hobby of composing that I want to live for and enjoy and that is what I plan on doing.

But according to God, he would not be happy with that and I would go to hell and he would never get me out. How is it all loving and all just to do that to someone like me and hold me accountable over a lack of belief I was sincere in and over some ongoing debate of claimed evidence I had no further interest looking into since my life's goal and dream was to compose?

Lastly, it could very well take me years (or even decades) to actually find out the truth only to find out that the skeptics were right all along or maybe I would still remain undecided. Maybe the truth is that there is no definite answer out there and it is all nothing more than ongoing debates. So I am clearly not going to waste all that time.

I suspect it would take that much time because this is a highly intellectual debate between highly intelligent people and a person like me who is of basic average intelligence would take this much time to finally see the truth. It would also take me years of education in science and philosophy to understand the scientific and philosophical arguments being presented by others and for me to come up with my own scientifically and philosophically sound arguments on the issue as well.

 

[allfoak]

The everyday signs that we see such as, for example, the number '666' popping up in our daily lives is not evidence because that could just be a coincidence. But the signs I've mentioned that would really leave me an open mind towards the Christian God is what I've mentioned before with my pillow spontaneously filling up with blood.

Death will answer your questions.

 

[viole]

>>I never said they are delusional or lying. I said that I am open to the possibility that they are telling the truth as well as the possibility that it is all not true and has a natural explanation.

What are you waiting for to complete your own investigation? (Again, it is why I find your position to be insincere.)

And, no, I am not interested in me, personally, leaving an open mind on this forever. God is not asking us to sit on the fence until every question we can come up with is answered. He has revealed enough. There is no need for faith to accept the glaring obvious truths. Faith is only for those things prayed for or hoped for later. It is not what my beliefs are based on.
Based on a myriad of historical evidence, Jesus is quite convincing without ever having to open His Book, imo.

The problem with His book is that it is not convincing even if we believed in miracles.

It is like one of those sci-fi movies that make no sense even if time travel was possible.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Valerian]

The everyday signs that we see such as, for example, the number '666' popping up in our daily lives is not evidence because that could just be a coincidence. But the signs I've mentioned that would really leave me an open mind towards the Christian God is what I've mentioned before with my pillow spontaneously filling up with blood.

My position is sincere. However, I have grown tired of trying to figure this whole thing out and looking and searching into all the claimed evidence to find out the truth. I am interested in composing and I am not going to waste my life searching for the truth. I have my hobby of composing that I want to live for and enjoy and that is what I plan on doing.

But according to God, he would not be happy with that and I would go to hell and he would never get me out. How is it all loving and all just to do that to someone like me and hold me accountable over a lack of belief I was sincere in and over some ongoing debate of claimed evidence I had no further interest looking into since my life's goal and dream was to compose?

Lastly, it could very well take me years (or even decades) to actually find out the truth only to find out that the skeptics were right all along or maybe I would still remain undecided. Maybe the truth is that there is no definite answer out there and it is all nothing more than ongoing debates. So I am clearly not going to waste all that time.

I suspect it would take that much time because this is a highly intellectual debate between highly intelligent people and a person like me who is of basic average intelligence would take this much time to finally see the truth. It would also take me years of education in science and philosophy to understand the scientific and philosophical arguments being presented by others and for me to come up with my own scientifically and philosophically sound arguments on the issue as well.

>>I am interested in composing and I am not going to waste my life searching for the truth. I have my hobby of composing that I want to live for and enjoy and that is what I plan on doing. But according to God, he would not be happy with that and I would go to hell and he would never get me out.

I already told you, I do not have a lot of sympathy for your predicament because you insist you know God’s opinion on all this. You do not. What you have stated above is far closer to the devil speaking than God. It is surely not a Catholic doctrine or teaching. So spare me the wisdom in your refusal to believe in such a God.

>>Lastly, it could very well take me years (or even decades) to actually find out the truth only to find out that the skeptics were right all along or maybe I would still remain undecided.

Why do you think the skeptics may be right? Because the miracles and evidence for God do not exist? Or because you have examined the evidence and decided they are fake? Or because you agree there is a God but not sure which one because they all have known miracles of some degree? No matter how you answer that, a follow up exchange would surely eliminate a few of those other religions. (imo)

>>It would also take me years of education in science and philosophy to understand the scientific and philosophical arguments being presented by others and for me to come up with my own scientifically and philosophically sound arguments on the issue as well.

Note: science is a bit player in all this. They are not even slightly interested in proving God’s existence, however, many of them sure seem intent on trying to prove He does not exist. So forget asking them questions. Unless you want to ask those involved in countless scientific examinations of the Shroud of Turin. It has surely convinced a number of them that the Christian God has to be real. The evidence on that cloth is beyond any human effort to create it. Totally. And no one in medieval times could ever think of creating a 3-D image on that cloth that turns out to be a negative image, not a positive, and so many other incredulous discoveries, much less pull off the ruse. But if one chooses to ignore the Shroud then at least do not make the claim that God has not revealed Himself on this earth.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

>>I am interested in composing and I am not going to waste my life searching for the truth. I have my hobby of composing that I want to live for and enjoy and that is what I plan on doing. But according to God, he would not be happy with that and I would go to hell and he would never get me out.

I already told you, I do not have a lot of sympathy for your predicament because you insist you know God’s opinion on all this. You do not. What you have stated above is far closer to the devil speaking than God. It is surely not a Catholic doctrine or teaching. So spare me the wisdom in your refusal to believe in such a God.

>>Lastly, it could very well take me years (or even decades) to actually find out the truth only to find out that the skeptics were right all along or maybe I would still remain undecided.

Why do you think the skeptics may be right? Because the miracles and evidence for God do not exist? Or because you have examined the evidence and decided they are fake? Or because you agree there is a God but not sure which one because they all have known miracles of some degree? No matter how you answer that, a follow up exchange would surely eliminate a few of those other religions. (imo)

>>It would also take me years of education in science and philosophy to understand the scientific and philosophical arguments being presented by others and for me to come up with my own scientifically and philosophically sound arguments on the issue as well.

Note: science is a bit player in all this. They are not even slightly interested in proving God’s existence, however, many of them sure seem intent on trying to prove He does not exist. So forget asking them questions. Unless you want to ask those involved in countless scientific examinations of the Shroud of Turin. It has surely convinced a number of them that the Christian God has to be real. The evidence on that cloth is beyond any human effort to create it. Totally. And no one in medieval times could ever think of creating a 3-D image on that cloth that turns out to be a negative image, not a positive, and so many other incredulous discoveries, much less pull off the ruse. But if one chooses to ignore the Shroud then at least do not make the claim that God has not revealed Himself on this earth.

When you say that I claim to know God's opinion on the matter and have no idea, then are you referring to what I said in regards to me going to hell and God never getting me out? So are you implying here that this is not the teaching here and that I am wrong about that?

If you are instead saying that I would go to hell and never get out and that I am instead wrong about what I've said in regards to it being morally wrong to have me to to hell and never get out, then how could you blame me though? I have looked through all the claimed evidence I could and I am being honest when saying that I am still undecided. I know I am not lying to myself here or anything. I did the follow up exchange and looked into that Shroud of Turin, but my honest mindset still has me undecided.

I mean, what kind of God would create the universe in such a way that there are many people out there like me who are in such an undecided predicament and then to have such people like me go to hell when the fact of the matter is that I should not be the one to blame here since my honest conclusion was an undecided mindset? Again, why should I be held accountable over something that was not my fault?