I am a non-believer and have some questions

[The Transcended Omniverse]

You seem to be seeking what doesn't exist. You can't love something, especially God, w/o having a relationship with it/Him. The evidence for there being a God is clear and obvious. The question/problem is which god is God. The answer is easy, the Bibles God is God. But,t people always make things harder than they are or don't want to stop living the way they are.
Would you believe in the Bibles God if someone could show you He prophesied Nukes about 2,400 years ago? How about, if He mentioned global warming or massive Meteors striking earth? Or, an Army of 200 million at a time when there was only about 50 million on earth?

I don't agree with that. I can be connected to God in other ways besides the way Christianity puts forth. As long as I am a kind person not harming and torturing others, then that is love right there. I can have an unseen spiritual connection with God through this love alone without having to believe in him or live my life for him. As a matter of fact, I can just be spiritually connected to him from the simple fact that I am an image of him in his creation.

Now I see. What is more loving than giving ur own life for someone who just raped and brutally murdered ur wife/hubby or kids? God lovelovesso much that He did just that for us. Have you ever done anything akin to that for...anyone? If not, then you don't know the love God has for us. It's hard to understand that which we refuse to even acknowledge, let alone accept.

Yes, that is one form of love. But as I pointed out, there are others as well. You can just love someone just from being kind to them. You do not have to sacrifice yourself, serve anybody, or live for anybody else. Again, the moral standard Christianity sets forth should not be the only way to have a loving relationship.

 

[Sonny]

Well the heat index is increasing globally so maybe they were right in the first place, if you are not good you are going to go to hell!!!

Matt, it isn't about being good. None of us are good enough. That is why Jesus, a perfect person, had to die in our place. So that God could buy us back (forgive us) for selling ourselves into sin or that which goes against God's nature. If we could earn it Jesus would not have died to provide it. If we cant earn it then we'd best accept the free gift of His life for our sins. Otherwise, we aren't going to be where God is in eternity. And, if you aren't willing to give ur life for or in place of some scumbag who molested and murdered a little girl then you can't begin to accuse God of not loving us. That is God's love.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Matt, it isn't about being good. None of us are good enough. That is why Jesus, a perfect person, had to die in our place. So that God could buy us back (forgive us) for selling ourselves into sin or that which goes against God's nature. If we could earn it Jesus would not have died to provide it. If we cant earn it then we'd best accept the free gift of His life for our sins. Otherwise, we aren't going to be where God is in eternity. And, if you aren't willing to give ur life for or in place of some scumbag who molested and murdered a little girl then you can't begin to accuse God of not loving us. That is God's love.

I still don't agree. There was no reason for him to judge us as sinful creatures in the first place as long as we are not cruel harming and torturing others. A humanistic based morality as opposed to a Christian based one is love to me. The fact that he did judge us as sinful and had to sacrifice his son is absurd. If he didn't judge us as sinful in the first place, then this whole absurd, asinine, and daft Christian based moral standard would not exist and we would instead have a bible that is based on a humanistic moral standard.

 

[Sonny]

I don't agree with that. I can be connected to God in other ways besides the way Christianity puts forth. ve a matter of fact,

Why shouldn't Christianity be the right way? Would you prefer some other religion's way? Say, Islam, that wants to cut heads off for their prophet and god? Do you like that form better? Or, any of the hundreds of cults where you have to work or pay ur way to get to heaven? Once a person examines the myriad of other beliefs Christianity stands heads and shoulders above them. No other way requires nothing but accepting and serving. It is fair and equal for all humans - and you don't have to pay or harm anyone else doing it.

 

[Sonny]

I still don't agree. There was no reason for him to judge us as sinful creatures in the first place as long as we are not cruel harming and torturing others. A humanistic based morality as opposed to a Christian based one is love to me. The fact that he did judge us as sinful and had to sacrifice his son is absurd. If he didn't judge us as sinful in the first place, then this whole absurd, asinine, and daft Christian based moral standard would not exist and we would instead have a bible that is based on a humanistic moral standard.

Ok. When people come to YOUR house/property do you have rules that they may not have or live by? Do you allow others to decide ur who ur wife will be, how many kids you'll have, what kind of car you drive or (last one, you get the point) what colors to paint ur house? This earth belongs to God, Matt. He decides the rules (like, gravity) and we have to follow them. We don't have to like it but that isn't our choice. Just as if some people fart during supper. If you don't and they do it at ur house YOU get to say something (I hope). You can't control ur life so why fight the rules? Yours don't change or compromise. Why should God do it for you or me?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Why shouldn't Christianity be the right way? Would you prefer some other religion's way? Say, Islam, that wants to cut heads off for their prophet and god? Do you like that form better? Or, any of the hundreds of cults where you have to work or pay ur way to get to heaven? Once a person examines the myriad of other beliefs Christianity stands heads and shoulders above them. No other way requires nothing but accepting and serving. It is fair and equal for all humans - and you don't have to pay or harm anyone else doing it.

All those other religions you've mentioned are horrible as well. I disagree with them as well. What I would prefer is what I think is called the New Age spiritual tradition. This is the modern spiritual view where there is a God, but he is nothing like the Christian God or those other gods who expect you to serve them lest you go to hell. It is a God who does not judge you or send you to hell. He only expects that you aren't cruel and don't go harming and torturing others.

Ok. When people come to YOUR house/property do you have rules that they may not have or live by? Do you allow others to decide ur who ur wife will be, how many kids you'll have, what kind of car you drive or (last one, you get the point) what colors to paint ur house? This earth belongs to God, Matt. He decides the rules (like, gravity) and we have to follow them. We don't have to like it but that isn't our choice. Just as if some people fart during supper. If you don't and they do it at ur house YOU get to say something (I hope). You can't control ur life so why fight the rules? Yours don't change or compromise. Why should God do it for you or me?

Yes, I agree there should be rules here. That rule would be what I pointed out earlier which was the humanistic New Age moral standard which was to be kind to others and don't be someone cruel who harms and tortures others. If you do that, then you are free to party, masturbate, and live for your own pleasure and enjoyment all you like.

 

[Hawkins]

It is as though the Christian God, for example, is saying:

"I am an all loving and all just God. I have had my son sacrificed. So in order for people to be convinced of my existence and of my son's sacrifice, I will just throw some things out there. Namely, the bible that I know many honest open minded people will not be convinced of. But if they still don't believe, then that is just too bad.

Especially for little children who die early and other people in other areas of the world who never got the chance to believe in me. I will not try to convince them any more than this even though I am an all powerful God who is more than capable of trying to do so. So that is all I am going to offer as a means of conviction. So take it or leave it. If you are not convinced and end up in hell, then that is just too bad and I am just going to have to leave you there to suffer for eternity."

So don't you see how such an attitude is not all loving, not all caring/just, and not morally righteous?

You apparently misunderstood the situation. It's only logical when a judgment being made based on a correct understanding of the situation.

It is said that God has an Ultimate Plan, which is to build an eternity (we called heaven) for His creatures to live with Him forever. To facilitate this plan, the first thing to do is to specify a set a Law which states God's likes and dislikes such that those qualified to be living in Heaven must not break the Law. It's more like you have some guests in your house who would stay for several months and you set up some rules for them to follow in order to live in peace with you.

Then Adam broke the Law and thus is disqualified. Adam was then driven out of God's realm (i.e., Eden). Once living outside God's realm and put under the deeper influence of Satan, no humans can abide by God's set of Law to be qualified. That is, if someone is as innocent and good as Adam can't resist Satan temptation but breaks God's Law even inside God's own place, then it is expected no one can resist Satan's influence when put outside God's realm. That is, humans as a whole have no hope of entering heaven.

However, Jesus made a decision, as part of God's Plan, to sacrifice Himself to justify the situation. With Jesus' this decision made, it makes possible for God to establish a series of covenants to the different human groups in different eras. A covenant simply says that, "since you humans can't abide by God's Law in full, you only need to abide by a set-aside set of rules (such as Mosaic Law) to a said standard, such that you will be saved by God's Grace through Jesus Christ."

Every human is born with a default covenant to make him savable at all. However, as time goes by, a covenant may lose its salvation power because humans keep walking farther and farther away from God. They become more sinful for the existing covenant to save. Thus God will introduce a newer covenant to re-acquire the salvation power. In a nutshell, each and every covenant serves the main purpose of identifying and thus separating the righteous from the wicked. The righteous thus will be brought to Heaven legitimately under open witnessing (of angels and chosen saints).

Then Jesus came and brought humans with the last and final covenant. In this covenant, God's Grace is maximized such that humans only need to put faith in Jesus/God to be saved (i.e., Law, such as Mosaic Law, is no longer used as a standard to judge who are the righteous).

If you have no faith in Christ, it means that you failed to choose the New Covenant as your protection. You are then subject to an older covenant with which you were born. You have not much hope to be saved with this older covenant as warned by the Bible.

On the other hand, a covenant is like a gift not earned by humans but by the self-sacrifice of God and Christ. God and Christ thus have all the right to grant it to whoever they'd like to. There's no unfairness here. All left is the effort of humans to preach the gospel for this gift to reach other humans for them to make a choice.

That's the situation.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

You apparently misunderstood the situation. It's only logical when a judgment being made based on a correct understanding of the situation.

It is said that God has an Ultimate Plan, which is to build an eternity (we called heaven) for His creatures to live with Him forever. To facilitate this plan, the first thing to do is to specify a set a Law which states God's likes and dislikes such that those qualified to be living in Heaven must not break the Law. It's more like you have some guests in your house who would stay for several months and you set up some rules for them to follow in order to live in peace with you.

Then Adam broke the Law and thus is disqualified. Adam was then driven out of God's realm (i.e., Eden). Once living outside God's realm and put under the deeper influence of Satan, no humans can abide by God's set of Law to be qualified. That is, if someone is as innocent and good as Adam can't resist Satan temptation but breaks God's Law even inside God's own place, then it is expected no one can resist Satan's influence when put outside God's realm. That is, humans as a whole have no hope of entering heaven.

However, Jesus made a decision, as part of God's Plan, to sacrifice Himself to justify the situation. With Jesus' this decision made, it makes possible for God to establish a series of covenants to the different human groups in different eras. A covenant simply says that, "since you humans can't abide by God's Law in full, you only need to abide by a set-aside set of rules (such as Mosaic Law) to a said standard, such that you will be saved by God's Grace through Jesus Christ."

Every human is born with a default covenant to make him savable at all. However, as time goes by, a covenant may lose its salvation power because humans keep walking farther and farther away from God. They become more sinful for the existing covenant to save. Thus God will introduce a newer covenant to re-acquire the salvation power. In a nutshell, each and every covenant serves the main purpose of identifying and thus separating the righteous from the wicked. The righteous thus will be brought to Heaven legitimately under open witnessing (of angels and chosen saints).

Then Jesus came and brought humans with the last and final covenant. In this covenant, God's Grace is maximized such that humans only need to put faith in Jesus/God to be saved (i.e., Law, such as Mosaic Law, is no longer used as a standard to judge who are the righteous).

If you have no faith in Christ, it means that you failed to choose the New Covenant as your protection. You are then subject to an older covenant with which you were born. You have not much hope to be saved with this older covenant as warned by the Bible.

On the other hand, a covenant is like a gift not earned by humans but by the self-sacrifice of God and Christ. God and Christ thus have all the right to grant it to whoever they'd like to. There's no unfairness here. All left is the effort of humans to preach the gospel for this gift to reach other humans for them to make a choice.

That's the situation.

Thanks for addressing my opening post. But go ahead and also read my other posts and replies here as well to these other people I've debated with here.

 

[David T]

Matt, it isn't about being good. None of us are good enough. That is why Jesus, a perfect person, had to die in our place. So that God could buy us back (forgive us) for selling ourselves into sin or that which goes against God's nature. If we could earn it Jesus would not have died to provide it. If we cant earn it then we'd best accept the free gift of His life for our sins. Otherwise, we aren't going to be where God is in eternity. And, if you aren't willing to give ur life for or in place of some scumbag who molested and murdered a little girl then you can't begin to accuse God of not loving us. That is God's love.

Ok now. I understand your framework totally. You actually believe you understand the bible. In the old mad max movie the children believed they understood the world around them as well. I am a bit wild like max and all I can really do is smile and that's about it. And btw I most definitely am not an atheist, nor do I believe in God nor am I agnostic. I am different than normal.

 

[InChrist]

And similar searches can find hundreds of testimonies of those who converted away from Christianity, either to another religion or to atheism. Nothing proved either way.

I think what has been proved by what you've just pointed out is that your previous point is false. People are not necessarily bound by the immense influence of the environment they grew up in or only by what is familiar.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

Interesting thread!

If you want an alternative to dogma, try "Conversations with God" - really opened my eyes with respect to Hell, love and many other topics.

You can find a few quotes from the book here -

Neale Donald Walsch Quotes (Author of Conversations with God)

Hope you find your "answer"!

Cheers

 

[InChrist]

If I did, then it would just be very basic stuff that is trivial such as getting in an argument. I have never done anything serious to harm myself or others in my life such as stabbing myself or others or anything else of this nature.

And who determines what wrongs are serious or trivial? What basic stuff is okay or what is harmful? I think each of us have a tendency to minimize our own faults or excuse our wrong behavior, especially when we compare ourselves with those really bad people out there like; murderers, rapists, etc. But according the the scriptures everyone sins and falls short of God's perfection and all sin is wrong and harms others or ourselves. I believe the scriptures indicate that God knows the motives of our every thought and only He can judge accurately.

 

[sayak83]

Why shouldn't Christianity be the right way? Would you prefer some other religion's way? Say, Islam, that wants to cut heads off for their prophet and god? Do you like that form better? Or, any of the hundreds of cults where you have to work or pay ur way to get to heaven? Once a person examines the myriad of other beliefs Christianity stands heads and shoulders above them. No other way requires nothing but accepting and serving. It is fair and equal for all humans - and you don't have to pay or harm anyone else doing it.

Your claim that Christianity is the best is completely indefensible. I am fairly comfortable with three worldviews:- secular humanism, buddhism and hinduism and am quite willing to claim that all three are far superior to Christianity in worldview, ethics, ontology, epistemology and outlook. I can debate this if you wish.

 

[sayak83]

Ok. When people come to YOUR house/property do you have rules that they may not have or live by? Do you allow others to decide ur who ur wife will be, how many kids you'll have, what kind of car you drive or (last one, you get the point) what colors to paint ur house? This earth belongs to God, Matt. He decides the rules (like, gravity) and we have to follow them. We don't have to like it but that isn't our choice. Just as if some people fart during supper. If you don't and they do it at ur house YOU get to say something (I hope). You can't control ur life so why fight the rules? Yours don't change or compromise. Why should God do it for you or me?

This argument holds even if the Creator of this universe and us happens to be an evil demon and will justify any and all forms of theology, no matter how evil, by the simple fact that the God in that theology is considered all powerful. What this form of argument suggests that at the end of the day, might is right. Follow God, because He has the greatest power and will cause you great suffering otherwise. Of course the argument is self-defeating. Unless one can objectively demonstrate that the God one is speaking of is truly and indisputably good and beyond reproach in terms of His self-less concern and love for creatures....there is no reason to trust Him and His proclamations, including those about the case that He is indeed the Creator etc. Thus unless one proves indubitably that God in a specific theology is good (not just good to me if I worship Him, but good in all actions, all proclamations, all intentions, universally everywhere), His proclamations that He is God cannot be trusted at all.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

We are spiritual beings.... experiencing a temporary mortal existence. The mortal body is subject to death, but the spirit is eternal and as such it cannot die. This temporary state of Mortality is only a means to a greater end....it is not the only act....in our eternal story.

Most people may not have had their spirit body leave their mortal body to know about this "life after death." However I have seen and I know what this existence is like. And you know.....that since we are innately spiritual beings....we DO (even as mortals in a mortal body) have the ability to see, those who have gone on to the other-side of death.

There are as many disembodied people walking amongst us, as there are, embodied ones. Some people believe that after a person dies....that they "go up to Heaven." Actually those people "return to God who gave it" in other words they return to spirit form (the state from which that person was originally organized). The mortal body returns to dust (earthly matter) and the spirit returns back to immortal matter (immortality/spiritual dust) which is eternal in nature (which does not evaporate/cannot die).


This earth has at least two dimensions---the mortal/physical and the immortal/spiritual realms. People who die, pass through the veil which separates "life and death" and they continue to stay [here] on the earth (in the earth's spiritual dimension) being around their loved ones until the final judgment. They see us, but most of us do not see them. (Babies who die actually go back to heaven).

I realize to some this might be a scarey thought....but it is just as real as those you know standing right before you. Things are only scarey when they are misunderstood and for most this knowledge is outside of many people's normal experience and/or comfort zone.

Well, this is way too much for me to swallow without even the tiniest shred of something observable, in our world, to even suggest that I would look into such a thing. I'm just not into imagining so very much out of whole cloth.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

You apparently misunderstood the situation. It's only logical when a judgment being made based on a correct understanding of the situation.

It is said that God has an Ultimate Plan, which is to build an eternity (we called heaven) for His creatures to live with Him forever. To facilitate this plan, the first thing to do is to specify a set a Law which states God's likes and dislikes such that those qualified to be living in Heaven must not break the Law. It's more like you have some guests in your house who would stay for several months and you set up some rules for them to follow in order to live in peace with you.

Then Adam broke the Law and thus is disqualified. Adam was then driven out of God's realm (i.e., Eden). Once living outside God's realm and put under the deeper influence of Satan, no humans can abide by God's set of Law to be qualified. That is, if someone is as innocent and good as Adam can't resist Satan temptation but breaks God's Law even inside God's own place, then it is expected no one can resist Satan's influence when put outside God's realm. That is, humans as a whole have no hope of entering heaven.

However, Jesus made a decision, as part of God's Plan, to sacrifice Himself to justify the situation. With Jesus' this decision made, it makes possible for God to establish a series of covenants to the different human groups in different eras. A covenant simply says that, "since you humans can't abide by God's Law in full, you only need to abide by a set-aside set of rules (such as Mosaic Law) to a said standard, such that you will be saved by God's Grace through Jesus Christ."

Every human is born with a default covenant to make him savable at all. However, as time goes by, a covenant may lose its salvation power because humans keep walking farther and farther away from God. They become more sinful for the existing covenant to save. Thus God will introduce a newer covenant to re-acquire the salvation power. In a nutshell, each and every covenant serves the main purpose of identifying and thus separating the righteous from the wicked. The righteous thus will be brought to Heaven legitimately under open witnessing (of angels and chosen saints).

Then Jesus came and brought humans with the last and final covenant. In this covenant, God's Grace is maximized such that humans only need to put faith in Jesus/God to be saved (i.e., Law, such as Mosaic Law, is no longer used as a standard to judge who are the righteous).

If you have no faith in Christ, it means that you failed to choose the New Covenant as your protection. You are then subject to an older covenant with which you were born. You have not much hope to be saved with this older covenant as warned by the Bible.

On the other hand, a covenant is like a gift not earned by humans but by the self-sacrifice of God and Christ. God and Christ thus have all the right to grant it to whoever they'd like to. There's no unfairness here. All left is the effort of humans to preach the gospel for this gift to reach other humans for them to make a choice.

That's the situation.

How do you square this with people who have never heard of Christianity or live in an area that is culturally a different religion? Is a person who is raised in a southern Christian home in the US that is sprinkled with holy water at 3 days old and had the idea of Jesus drilled into their head somehow an objectively better person than the one who grew up in Islam and was taught that Christianity is wrong? Or the same thing to Hindus, Jews and all other religions?

A common answer is that somehow Christianity is just objectively true and better in the eyes of all people and yet if that were true why do we still see so many people following other religions? Why is it purely cultural? Why does what we are raised in have a profound impact on which religion we choose if Christianity was some kind of obvious answer?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I think what has been proved by what you've just pointed out is that your previous point is false. People are not necessarily bound by the immense influence of the environment they grew up in or only by what is familiar.

Nor did I say that. We are far too flexible to be "bound" in such a way. But we do not think in terms that we are not familiar with. Our language(s), our experiences and the stories we've heard provide the framework inside which we are free to imagine. But the Hindu who had never heard of the Virgin Mary would not see her face in an oil slick, nor would the Aztec worshipper ever see the face of Jesus in a piece of burnt maize bread.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

And who determines what wrongs are serious or trivial? What basic stuff is okay or what is harmful? I think each of us have a tendency to minimize our own faults or excuse our wrong behavior, especially when we compare ourselves with those really bad people out there like; murderers, rapists, etc. But according the the scriptures everyone sins and falls short of God's perfection and all sin is wrong and harms others or ourselves. I believe the scriptures indicate that God knows the motives of our every thought and only He can judge accurately.

But I do not agree that a loving God would never get a person out of hell and just leave them there though or even have them go there in the first place. I agree that there should be at least some punishment for wrongdoing, but never hell. It would be the types of punishment my caring and loving mother would give to me. If I yelled at her, then she would not buy me what I wanted.

If I did something very serious though, she would not have me go to hell. She would instead give me a more drastic punishment than not buying me what I wanted. I instead agree that an all loving and all just God would be someone like my mother. My mother has a humanistic moral standard and this is the moral standard that I agree is an all loving, all just, and morally righteous standard. I do not agree at all with the Christian moral standard.

 

[Valerian]

I have stated before that I am a non-believer in Christianity and other religions that pose the risk of going to hell if you do not believe and serve their God. I am here to debate the moral nature of Christianity and those other religions as well as the validity of such religions.

I am in an undecided mindset leaning a bit towards the idea that such religions are fear mongering nonsense, but am not entirely sure which is why I wish to have a debate of my own here. I have read into all the claimed evidence and debates by skeptics and believers and my mindset is an honest, open, undecided mindset. I have truly and honestly tried my best here, but my mindset has to remain undecided and this is an honest mindset I am having here.

Christians, for example, would tell me that is bull because they would claim that I am in denial and only being the fool lying to myself. Now this is an issue that cannot be debated because this is a matter of personal subjective experience. I am in my own mind and only I would know if I were lying to myself or not.

I know that I am not lying to myself. My lack of conviction in Christianity and those other religions is genuine. If, let's pretend, the Christian God were real, then he should understand this and should get me out of hell if I were to go there.

He should of understood that I would of lived my life for him and dedicated my life to him if I believed he were real. Furthermore, if he loves and cares about me so much, then that love and compassion should compel him to try and convince me time and time again through signs and such to try and save me since nothing else has worked to convince me.

What kind of loving person or parent wouldn't take such action and instead just leave their son/daughter to be tormented in hell forever and not get them out? Especially since belief is not a matter of choice and is instead a matter of what your honest open mindset leads you to.

It is as though the Christian God, for example, is saying:

"I am an all loving and all just God. I have had my son sacrificed. So in order for people to be convinced of my existence and of my son's sacrifice, I will just throw some things out there. Namely, the bible that I know many honest open minded people will not be convinced of. But if they still don't believe, then that is just too bad.

Especially for little children who die early and other people in other areas of the world who never got the chance to believe in me. I will not try to convince them any more than this even though I am an all powerful God who is more than capable of trying to do so. So that is all I am going to offer as a means of conviction. So take it or leave it. If you are not convinced and end up in hell, then that is just too bad and I am just going to have to leave you there to suffer for eternity."

So don't you see how such an attitude is not all loving, not all caring/just, and not morally righteous?

Hard to say how much your own judgment of whether the God of the Bible is real or not will be used as a defense when God weighs it all out.
But I am curious; if the Christian God is pretty much as most believe, do you think there should be any punishment at all for indifference and habitual disobedience?
What about those who knowingly live their lives as total hateful murderous devils on earth, in total violation of their own consciences. Should they be allowed into heaven?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Hard to say how much your own judgment of whether the God of the Bible is real or not will be used as a defense when God weighs it all out.
But I am curious; if the Christian God is pretty much as most believe, do you think there should be any punishment at all for indifference and habitual disobedience?
What about those who knowingly live their lives as total hateful murderous devils on earth, in total violation of their own consciences. Should they be allowed into heaven?

Read all my posts in this topic because it addresses that very question.