I am a non-believer and have some questions

[Janet Waters]

Have you a single scrap of evidence to substantiate any of that?

What specifically?

 

[Valerian]

When you say that I claim to know God's opinion on the matter and have no idea, then are you referring to what I said in regards to me going to hell and God never getting me out? So are you implying here that this is not the teaching here and that I am wrong about that?

If you are instead saying that I would go to hell and never get out and that I am instead wrong about what I've said in regards to it being morally wrong to have me to to hell and never get out, then how could you blame me though? I have looked through all the claimed evidence I could and I am being honest when saying that I am still undecided. I know I am not lying to myself here or anything. I did the follow up exchange and looked into that Shroud of Turin, but my honest mindset still has me undecided.

I mean, what kind of God would create the universe in such a way that there are many people out there like me who are in such an undecided predicament and then to have such people like me go to hell when the fact of the matter is that I should not be the one to blame here since my honest conclusion was an undecided mindset? Again, why should I be held accountable over something that was not my fault?

>>When you say that I claim to know God's opinion on the matter and have no idea, then are you referring to what I said in regards to me going to hell and God never getting me out? So are you implying here that this is not the teaching here and that I am wrong about that?

Yes and no. Based on my very deeply read and sought out teachings on the Catholic Church over the years, 1) they do say hell exists but make no judgments that any one in particular is there, nor do they say any particular person deserves to be there. The Catholic Church, in my opinion only, I believe teaches that the majority of souls go to purgatory first and endure the sufferings and purifications which can be centuries before they are allowed into heaven. Few go to hell or directly to heaven. No, I cannot be dogmatic.

>>If you are instead saying that I would go to hell and never get out and that I am instead wrong about what I've said in regards to it being morally wrong to have me to go to hell and never get out, then how could you blame me though?

I do not blame you for that kind of reasoning. I do think your premises on what is actually taught by the Catholic Church is somewhat incorrect. But to answer it better, I believe the evidence for the Christian God, for heaven and hell, for the mercy of God for poor sinners across the globe --- those in the Church and those who never go to church --- is inestimable but surely immense. God is giving us every opportunity to know Him and to accept His mercy and gifts for so little in return. But if some hear that but cannot be convinced it is totally true because the evidence does not sit well with them, well, they may be fooling themselves. And if others can see this but are totally hung up because of the hell doctrine, I cannot see why they would turn their backs on this God simply because they do not like what is being said about hell. The chance to be with your loved ones forever in total peace and happiness is being discarded because one does not have all the answers? I do not get it?

>>I mean, what kind of God would create the universe in such a way that there are many people out there like me who are in such an undecided predicament and then to have such people like me go to hell when the fact of the matter is that I should not be the one to blame here since my honest conclusion was an undecided mindset? Again, why should I be held accountable over something that was not my fault?

Again, you are the one who says you are going to hell because of your confusion, I am not, the Church is not, nor is the Bible. So why are you so angry over a fact is by and large untrue?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

>>When you say that I claim to know God's opinion on the matter and have no idea, then are you referring to what I said in regards to me going to hell and God never getting me out? So are you implying here that this is not the teaching here and that I am wrong about that?

Yes and no. Based on my very deeply read and sought out teachings on the Catholic Church over the years, 1) they do say hell exists but make no judgments that any one in particular is there, nor do they say any particular person deserves to be there. The Catholic Church, in my opinion only, I believe teaches that the majority of souls go to purgatory first and endure the sufferings and purifications which can be centuries before they are allowed into heaven. Few go to hell or directly to heaven. No, I cannot be dogmatic.

>>If you are instead saying that I would go to hell and never get out and that I am instead wrong about what I've said in regards to it being morally wrong to have me to go to hell and never get out, then how could you blame me though?

I do not blame you for that kind of reasoning. I do think your premises on what is actually taught by the Catholic Church is somewhat incorrect. But to answer it better, I believe the evidence for the Christian God, for heaven and hell, for the mercy of God for poor sinners across the globe --- those in the Church and those who never go to church --- is inestimable but surely immense. God is giving us every opportunity to know Him and to accept His mercy and gifts for so little in return. But if some hear that but cannot be convinced it is totally true because the evidence does not sit well with them, well, they may be fooling themselves. And if others can see this but are totally hung up because of the hell doctrine, I cannot see why they would turn their backs on this God simply because they do not like what is being said about hell. The chance to be with your loved ones forever in total peace and happiness is being discarded because one does not have all the answers? I do not get it?

>>I mean, what kind of God would create the universe in such a way that there are many people out there like me who are in such an undecided predicament and then to have such people like me go to hell when the fact of the matter is that I should not be the one to blame here since my honest conclusion was an undecided mindset? Again, why should I be held accountable over something that was not my fault?

Again, you are the one who says you are going to hell because of your confusion, I am not, the Church is not, nor is the Bible. So why are you so angry over a fact is by and large untrue?

I am angry because I am open to those other Christians who would say that I would go to hell in my hopeless situation in which there is no way to convince me of God's existence. I know that I am not fooling myself. I have tried my very best and have honestly looked at all the claimed evidence and I just have to remain undecided. When you are undecided about a certain claim, it does not mean it is discarded. Rather, it just simply means that you are open to it as a possibility.

 

[Altfish]

What specifically?

Where to start...
OK evidence that:-

• That Jesus Christ is our personal Saviour he is not an uncaring collective Saviour.
• That God determines what is just and merciful based upon LAW .....
• That Jesus Christ has paid the PENALITY of sin (which is death and hell) for all those who turn to him, repent, and change their ways.
• That God's mercy will allow them to be taught that which they didn't have the opportunity to learn while in life.
• That hell, in it's varied forms.....is a reality and still exists.

That will do for now.

 

[Janet Waters]

Where to start...
OK evidence that:

• That Jesus Christ is our personal Saviour he is not an uncaring collective Saviour.

• Jesus Christ is known as the Good Shepherd. He decribes the love he has for the sheep....even the ONE who is lost straying away. After Christ secures the "ninety-nine" in the safety of the fold, he leaves them to find "the one" who is lost.
  

  • Luke 15:4
    3 ¶And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
    4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
    5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
    6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
    7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

  • John 10:11-14
    11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
    12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
    13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
    14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

• That God determines what is just and merciful based upon LAW .....

• .

  • Psalms 89:14
    14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
    • John 7:51
      51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
      • Romans 2:12
        12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

• That Jesus Christ has paid the PENALITY of sin (which is death and hell) for all those who turn to him, repent, and change their ways.

• . "As used in the scriptures, to ATONE is to suffer the penalty for an act of sin, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of making a perfect Atonement for mankind." Guide to the Scriptures

• That God's mercy will allow them to be taught that which they didn't have the opportunity to learn while in life.

While the Mortal Ministry of Jesus Christ was reserved for the House of Israel (for them to take that knowledge into the world)---Christ's FULL MINISTRY was directed to ALL of humanity (both in life and in death...infinite and eternal). There are those whom Jesus walked with in mortality (in life) as well as those he walked with in immortality (after death/spirit world and beyond) who had already died also bound in "prison." Prison refers to those "bound in sin" whether they are alive in mortality or they have already died and are presently locked in "Spirit Prison." After a person dies they go to the Spirit World which is divided between Paradise and Spirit Prison---this place is located as another dimension of this world we live on. This is a temporary "heaven and hell" a waiting period before the Final Judgement (which will be eternal).

All humanity (whether in mortality or immortality) are in the throws of death....referring to both physical (death of the body) and spiritual death (hell: death of righteousness/spiritually speaking).

Jesus' mortal ministry was over when He was "put to death in the flesh" and then He was "quickened by the Spirit" when His Spirit went into the Spirit World. The three days while Jesus' body laid in the grave------he was busy "preaching unto the spirits in prison."

1 Peter 18-21
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Luke 1:16-80
76 And thou, child [John the Baptist], shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

• • Isaiah 42:7
    7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
    
    Isaiah 24:22
    22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
    
    Isaiah 53:8
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    
    Isaiah 42:22
    22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.
    
    Isaiah 61:1
    1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, [B_to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;[/B]

• That hell, in it's varied forms.....is a reality and still exists.

That will do for now.

When the scriptures refer to heaven and hell...you have to pay attention to which ones it is talking about. There are serveral heavens and several hells---divided from each other in different space and time frames.

We know there are at least 3 heavens and 3 hells.

 

[Sonny]

I still don't agree. There was no reason for him to judge us as sinful creatures in the first place as long as we are not cruel harming and torturing others. A humanistic based morality as opposed to a Christian based one is love to me. The fact that he did judge us as sinful and had to sacrifice his son is absurd. If he didn't judge us as sinful in the first place, then this whole absurd, asinine, and daft Christian based moral standard would not exist and we would instead have a bible that is based on a humanistic moral standard.

What? "There was no reason for him to judge us as sinful creatures in the first place" Sure there was. We violated God's rules. Matt, since God is perfect it is His standards, His righteous requirements, that determine the rules (laws) that we humans live by. Every nation has taken the lives of bad people. It's the rules for living in 'whatever' country. The same applies to God. He created this world so He, alone, has the last say in what is or isn't an acceptable lifestyle. We can't tell God He is wrong bcuz we don't like His rules. That's silly, in a sense. Are you wrong for not letting others choose your life or your wife, etc? Of course not. Neither is God. I do understand your point (except about the age-old Eastern religions NOW called New Age Spirituality) but you should try to see God's POV. After all, the Big Bang and evolution never took place so it is Creation, and that by God's design, that put humans on earth. It seems to me that you are upset bc God has rules you don't like or agree with. I imagine there are people who think the same of some of your rules or principles, too. But humans didn't create this amazing world, God did. Therefore, He, alone, gets to make the rules. Add that to Jesus' shed blood on the Cross and there is no reason, or justification, for men to reject or deny God's word and Will.

 

[Sonny]

I still don't agree. There was no reason for him to judge us as sinful creatures in the first place as long as we are not cruel harming and torturing others. A humanistic based morality as opposed to a Christian based one is love to me. The fact that he did judge us as sinful and had to sacrifice his son is absurd. If he didn't judge us as sinful in the first place, then this whole absurd, asinine, and daft Christian based moral standard would not exist and we would instead have a bible that is based on a humanistic moral standard.

Look around the world today, Matt. We are living in a humanistic world...where nothing is wrong and anything that goes against what WE want to do is bigoted, racist or hate. The Bible, ironically, mentions these things coming in the Last Days, too. Men are evil, wicked, and cruel by nature. We can't help but do wrong, be bad and act out in evil ways when things don't go our way. This will continue to get worse now that America has kicked God out of our country (1963/64). Now, today, there are no moral absolutes and everyone, truly, does what is right in his own eyes. That is begging for anarchy and chaos- and it's coming. Ever seen the ignorant and hateful BLM bunch block other people's right to move freely on Freeways or in towns? That crap is a Godless world making their own rules that always need changing. Tyranny occurs when people stop following morality. It always has and it is already in our country.

 

[Sonny]

Ok now. I understand your framework totally. You actually believe you understand the bible. In the old mad max movie the children believed they understood the world around them as well. I am a bit wild like max and all I can really do is smile and that's about it. And btw I most definitely am not an atheist, nor do I believe in God nor am I agnostic. I am different than normal. View attachment 15856

Actually, I wish I understood the Bible better. But, I do believe that one, especially a professing Christian, should never contradict clear Scripture. I have found no other or better explanation for Creation. There is, in point of fact, only two options for creation- God designed the Universe or everything magically went from nothing to something living all by itself and then, as if that wasn't insane enough, that once-dead-nothing that burst into living started to automatically and w/o choice or knowledge change and become something else- such as a worm turned into a snake into a rabbit into a dog into a...human. I find it takes far more faith to believe in the religion of evolution than Christianity. In Mad Max, the kids only knew what they were taught/told. In real life each of us can research and investigate things- life, history, Geography, etc. We are w/o excuse for studying everything to learn except learning the truth about which religion has the true God. There can be only one, by default.

 

[Altfish]

• Jesus Christ is known as the Good Shepherd. He decribes the love he has for the sheep....even the ONE who is lost straying away. After Christ secures the "ninety-nine" in the safety of the fold, he leaves them to find "the one" who is lost.

• . . "As used in the scriptures, to ATONE is to suffer the penalty for an act of sin, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of making a perfect Atonement for mankind." Guide to the Scriptures

While the Mortal Ministry of Jesus Christ was reserved for the House of Israel (for them to take that knowledge into the world)---Christ's FULL MINISTRY was directed to ALL of humanity (both in life and in death...infinite and eternal). There are those whom Jesus walked with in mortality (in life) as well as those he walked with in immortality (after death/spirit world and beyond) who had already died also bound in "prison." Prison refers to those "bound in sin" whether they are alive in mortality or they have already died and are presently locked in "Spirit Prison." After a person dies they go to the Spirit World which is divided between Paradise and Spirit Prison---this place is located as another dimension of this world we live on. This is a temporary "heaven and hell" a waiting period before the Final Judgement (which will be eternal).

All humanity (whether in mortality or immortality) are in the throws of death....referring to both physical (death of the body) and spiritual death (hell: death of righteousness/spiritually speaking).

Jesus' mortal ministry was over when He was "put to death in the flesh" and then He was "quickened by the Spirit" when His Spirit went into the Spirit World. The three days while Jesus' body laid in the grave------he was busy "preaching unto the spirits in prison."


When the scriptures refer to heaven and hell...you have to pay attention to which ones it is talking about. There are serveral heavens and several hells---divided from each other in different space and time frames.

We know there are at least 3 heavens and 3 hells.

Quoting your holy book doesn't count as evidence.
Atheists, like me, think that The Bible are man made books written by humans 2000 years ago. They are proven to be false, contradictory and definitely not trustworthy.

Do you have any other evidence??

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Look around the world today, Matt. We are living in a humanistic world...where nothing is wrong and anything that goes against what WE want to do is bigoted, racist or hate. The Bible, ironically, mentions these things coming in the Last Days, too. Men are evil, wicked, and cruel by nature. We can't help but do wrong, be bad and act out in evil ways when things don't go our way. This will continue to get worse now that America has kicked God out of our country (1963/64). Now, today, there are no moral absolutes and everyone, truly, does what is right in his own eyes. That is begging for anarchy and chaos- and it's coming. Ever seen the ignorant and hateful BLM bunch block other people's right to move freely on Freeways or in towns? That crap is a Godless world making their own rules that always need changing. Tyranny occurs when people stop following morality. It always has and it is already in our country.

So based on what you've explained, I am wicked and evil for just living to be happy and to enjoy my life despite the fact that I am a kind person who doesn't harm and torture others? So I am wrong in saying that there are other ways to be morally right and to have a loving relationship? You are saying that the Christian moral standard is the only morally righteous standard and is the only way to have a loving relationship? My way of living has never resulted in any of the chaos you have mentioned since I was always a kind person who always made sure that I stayed healthy and never went around hurting others or myself.

But that doesn't matter according to what you've said? I am still wicked and evil? But how can I be convinced of that in the first place when I am not convinced that this God is real to begin with? Read everything I have said here. My honest mindset is undecided while leaning a bit towards Christianity being nonsense. No loving God would create a world in such a way where we have people such as me in truly hopeless scenarios where they can never be convinced God is real due to an honest open minded mindset and for them to go to hell over their genuine disbelief. That even goes for little children who die early and people in other parts of the world who never had the chance to hear or believe in God.

 

[Sonny]

Your claim that Christianity is the best is completely indefensible. I am fairly comfortable with three worldviews:- secular humanism, buddhism and hinduism and am quite willing to claim that all three are far superior to Christianity in worldview, ethics, ontology, epistemology and outlook. I can debate this if you wish.

The 3 you mentioned have never contributed much to the growth of the modern world when compared to what Christian-based nations have done. One need only to look at the West's achievements for proof of that. And, I have never heard or seen a civilized or social society where humanism is the guiding light of a nation that is successful, safe and prosperous. Could you point a few out? Not any that are leeching off the fat of Christian-valued nations, either (China, India, etc).

 

[Sonny]

Quoting your holy book doesn't count as evidence.
Atheists, like me, think that The Bible are man made books written by humans 2000 years ago. They are proven to be false, contradictory and definitely not trustworthy.

Do you have any other evidence??

Where is your proof the Bible is false or man-made? I have seen prophecies in the Bible that were fulfilled. Only a book inspired by someone who could actually see (or be present in) the future could make such predictions and know those things would happen.
Also, fulfilled prophecies that were given 1,000 or 2,000 or more years before they came true. There is no way many of the prophecies could have been known in 'that' day- no electricity, no running water, no TV, etc., etc. The Bible states the earth is round/circular before anyone knew it was- even then (500 years ago) people taught the earth was flat. Also, Jesus predicted (prophesied) electricity, satellites and TVs. And, other Apostles/Prophets predicted other things that either have or we can see are about to happen. The evidence is there but we have to look for it. Plus, we have faith that is based on facts and not simply blind-faith like all of the others have.

 

[Sonny]

So based on what you've explained, I am wicked and evil for just living to be happy and to enjoy my life despite the fact that I am a kind person who doesn't harm and torture others? So I am wrong in saying that there are other ways to be morally right and to have a loving relationship? You are saying that the Christian moral standard is the only morally righteous standard and is the only way to have a loving relationship? My way of living has never resulted in any of the chaos you have mentioned since I was always a kind person who always made sure that I stayed healthy and never went around hurting others or myself.

But that doesn't matter according to what you've said? I am still wicked and evil? But how can I be convinced of that in the first place when I am not convinced that this God is real to begin with? Read everything I have said here. My honest mindset is undecided while leaning a bit towards Christianity being nonsense. No loving God would create a world in such a way where we have people such as me in truly hopeless scenarios where they can never be convinced God is real due to an honest open minded mindset and for them to go to hell over their genuine disbelief. That even goes for little children who die early and people in other parts of the world who never had the chance to hear or believe in God.

First, that little children thing is a mistake on your part. All who die young, before the age of accountability, is automatically 'saved' (in heaven). You seem to think God hates humanity and demands we straighten up before He will love us. Not quite how it works. It is the responsibility of each human to find out who God is and which religion has the right one. I have studied numerous religions and always come back to the Bible. All of the others prove themselves false by the words they say or the things they teach. For ex. Mormonism teaches that Joseph Smith, its founder/1st prophet, is a God equal to God in many ways and that JS did more than Jesus. Yet, a quick look at what JS did proves he never created a single thing and that he lied a LOT.

You are no less and no more wicked than anyone else. But you are a sinner by nature- 1. bc A&E sinned, being perfect, and we are their offspring we are sinners.2. You have done things that go against God's nature, character and Will so yes, you are a sinner in your own right. 3. If you do not repent (change directions) and ask God to forgive your sins then you are living a rebellious and sinful lifestyle against God's rules for this world. You (and me and everyone else) can research to see if there is a God. Because we'd rather learn a trade or get an Education we often leave the knowledge of God out of our lives. We are responsible for our own soul. If you spend time learning a job/Trade but not looking for God who's fault is that? Not God's. Being good is not a free ride to Heaven. There are better people than you and I in Hell today. Being good without God only serves our own egos.

 

[sayak83]

The 3 you mentioned have never contributed much to the growth of the modern world when compared to what Christian-based nations have done. One need only to look at the West's achievements for proof of that. And, I have never heard or seen a civilized or social society where humanism is the guiding light of a nation that is successful, safe and prosperous. Could you point a few out? Not any that are leeching off the fat of Christian-valued nations, either (China, India, etc).

I see.
Christianity has been the parasite that has been leeching off the on the achievements of the great secular and enlightened traditions of Greece and Rome and falsely claiming for themselves the tireless work of Greek and Classical World inspired enlightened humanistic philosophers, scientists and reformers of post 16th century Europe. Even then it is frankly difficult to call European world civilized in any meaningful sense of the term given the horrors and atrocities it perpetrated across the world from 15th to 20th century with gay abandon.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

First, that little children thing is a mistake on your part. All who die young, before the age of accountability, is automatically 'saved' (in heaven). You seem to think God hates humanity and demands we straighten up before He will love us. Not quite how it works. It is the responsibility of each human to find out who God is and which religion has the right one. I have studied numerous religions and always come back to the Bible. All of the others prove themselves false by the words they say or the things they teach. For ex. Mormonism teaches that Joseph Smith, its founder/1st prophet, is a God equal to God in many ways and that JS did more than Jesus. Yet, a quick look at what JS did proves he never created a single thing and that he lied a LOT.

Alright, so what makes me any different than those little children who obtain salvation and aren't held accountable? I should not be held accountable either since my lack of conviction is genuine and I did my very best to seek the truth, but have to remain undecided. I should not be put to blame over something that I was genuine and honest about.

 

[Sonny]

I think what you are saying here is very much something that I feel as well. It has always been central to my thinking that there is absolutely zero real reason why the Christian (or any) God would reveal himself to so very few, so very long ago, expect that revelation to be passed flawlessly on to billions, and refuse to provide further revelation to those who, for good and usually innocent reason, cannot accept the dogma presented by others.

In other words, if God wants to know you, and if He is God, there is no earthly (nor heavenly) reason He could not and would not make that happen.

Those Christians who blame the failure to know God on you -- by saying, "you are not open to Him" -- make the very silly error of assuming that without believing in Santa, you're still dying to meet him.. Christians don't seek out the Flying Spaghetti Monster for precisely the same reason, yet cannot see why non-believers in God and Jesus are behaving precisely the same way.

God judges us based on what we know of Him, not what we don't. How sad it is to think, or say, that God sends innocent folks to hell for not having access to His word. Or, for not having ever heard of Jesus. But, the Bible is clear when it states that ALL of us know there is a God. What we choose to do with that knowledge is what we will be judged for. We will never be able to fully understand God's grace, mercy, forgiveness or love (we'd be God if we could). But, we get a good idea from what has been stated, tested and proven. IF God is God then everything He said is either true or irrefutable. Science, on the other hand, is always changing its 'known' truth for a different, often better, truth. That isn't truth. Truth is that which conforms to the facts and agrees with final reality. Christianity does just that. None other thought does- they need to keep changing 'God's words' or make excuses for it when changing can't be done.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God judges us based on what we know of Him, not what we don't. How sad it is to think, or say, that God sends innocent folks to hell for not having access to His word. Or, for not having ever heard of Jesus. But, the Bible is clear when it states that ALL of us know there is a God. What we choose to do with that knowledge is what we will be judged for. We will never be able to fully understand God's grace, mercy, forgiveness or love (we'd be God if we could). But, we get a good idea from what has been stated, tested and proven. IF God is God then everything He said is either true or irrefutable. Science, on the other hand, is always changing its 'known' truth for a different, often better, truth. That isn't truth. Truth is that which conforms to the facts and agrees with final reality. Christianity does just that. None other thought does- they need to keep changing 'God's words' or make excuses for it when changing can't be done.

And here, unfortunately, we part company...I have presented in other posts, many times, my strong reasons for rejecting Christian theology. For me, there are just so many problems with that theology that I could not possibly accept that it has anything to do with reality.

 

[Sonny]

I see.
Christianity has been the parasite that has been leeching off the on the achievements of the great secular and enlightened traditions of Greece and Rome and falsely claiming for themselves the tireless work of Greek and Classical World inspired enlightened humanistic philosophers, scientists and reformers of post 16th century Europe. Even then it is frankly difficult to call European world civilized in any meaningful sense of the term given the horrors and atrocities it perpetrated across the world from 15th to 20th century with gay abandon.

I was speaking of the modern world (so I stand corrected, for not saying that). Of course Greece, Rome, Egypt and others that came before them were superpowers in their day. And none were Christian-based bc it didn't exist. But, that, too, was designed. How could Jesus have come to this world and His words be spread all over the world if not for a previously instituted plan by God for Rome to exist and build and expand that set the stage for peace and safe passage, by and large, for the soon-to-be Apostles to travel? I see God's hand in everything. No other religion or movement has had such a powerful and long-lasting impact on civilization or mankind than Christianity.

 

[Sonny]

And here, unfortunately, we part company...I have presented in other posts, many times, my strong reasons for rejecting Christian theology. For me, there are just so many problems with that theology that I could not possibly accept that it has anything to do with reality.

I'm new here so, please, name 2 or 3 reasons you reject Christianity. Btw, I have had my own fair share of questions and doubts the last couple years. But, I've never rejected or denied Jesus is God. I simply cannot get passed all of the evidence for Him. I mean, Jesus predicted electricity, TVs and satellites. That is tough to deny or reject- and the crazy part is most folks never notice He said it.

 

[Valerian]

And here, unfortunately, we part company...I have presented in other posts, many times, my strong reasons for rejecting Christian theology. For me, there are just so many problems with that theology that I could not possibly accept that it has anything to do with reality.

If one looks only for reasons to doubt or find flaw and ignores those things that cannot be explained, then that person will remain a doubter.

I do not need every question or mystery answered to remain confident in the supernatural manifestations over history since the first Jews.