I am a non-believer and have some questions

[allfoak]

The answer comes through looking at all the claimed evidence and debates out there. I have come to a conclusion based on an honest open mindset and that conclusion would be undecided.

okay

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If, let's pretend, the Christian God were real, then he should understand this and should get me out of hell if I were to go there.

He should of understood that I would of lived my life for him and dedicated my life to him if I believed he were real. Furthermore, if he loves and cares about me so much, then that love and compassion should compel him to try and convince me time and time again through signs and such to try and save me since nothing else has worked to convince me.

I think what you are saying here is very much something that I feel as well. It has always been central to my thinking that there is absolutely zero real reason why the Christian (or any) God would reveal himself to so very few, so very long ago, expect that revelation to be passed flawlessly on to billions, and refuse to provide further revelation to those who, for good and usually innocent reason, cannot accept the dogma presented by others.

In other words, if God wants to know you, and if He is God, there is no earthly (nor heavenly) reason He could not and would not make that happen.

Those Christians who blame the failure to know God on you -- by saying, "you are not open to Him" -- make the very silly error of assuming that without believing in Santa, you're still dying to meet him.. Christians don't seek out the Flying Spaghetti Monster for precisely the same reason, yet cannot see why non-believers in God and Jesus are behaving precisely the same way.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So you see God doesn't want you to repent for fear of hell, God wants you to repent because you don't want to live in sin no more. But you struggle with the fear of hell, realizing that cannot save you, until you give up and turn your heart towards God for help.

Repent what, exactly? Getting up in the morning and having coffee and breakfast? Going to work? Getting through the day as best one can? Doing what good one can, and as little harm? The vast majority of what every human being, of every faith and none, for the most part of all of their lives doesn't strike as me as endless wallowing in sin!

The Christian fetish (and it is a fetish) for constantly feeling like a sinner, all icky and naughty and deserving of punishment by a fierce and judgmental deity seems quite perverse, to me.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If it exists how else could it be perceived except as a threat? God loves us so much he put up a warning sign. Hell, do not enter

Funny, really, since as was pointed out in Post #2 by @Neo Deist, that warning sign isn't even in the Bible. It was made up much later by those humans (not gods) seeking to control the minds and actions of other humans. As they've always done.

I rather suspect if God loves you as much as you think He does, He'd have made sure you knew that...

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I just read this and think your doubts, questions, and thoughts are extremely valid. I personally don't think real Christianity is based on fear mongering, at least it wasn't for me when I searched for answers and first understood who Jesus Christ was, as I found freedom in His eternal love for me at age 36 over twenty-five years ago. As I looked back over the years before, I saw repeatedly how God did reveal Himself over and over giving me one opportunity after another to know Him and the truth. I believe He does the same for everyone, giving each person who seeks with an open, honest mind the chance to be fully convinced within their own heart and mind...while also leaving room and allowance for those who simply choose to refuse the truth even though they know it to be true. It is the latter who I believe are the ones who end up in hell. It is not because God is unloving, but I believe because life, eternal life with God only exists in the reality of truth and anything outside of this is suffering.

Yet, I would ask you if you didn't just find exactly what you were expecting to find, due to the immense influence of your environment growing up?

Have you never noticed -- a Hindu never sees the virgin Mary or Jesus in an oil slick or burnt slice of toast? Nor would an ink-blot make a Christian think of an elephant-headed god. Our imaginations conjure up what we're already familiar with, what we've been immersed in since we were first able to perceive.

 

[allfoak]

The answer comes through looking at all the claimed evidence and debates out there. I have come to a conclusion based on an honest open mindset and that conclusion would be undecided.

You have not considered all of the evidence.
I presented some ideas to you that would help you to find the evidence you are looking for and you completely rejected them.
This means you have not considered all of the evidence.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

You have not considered all of the evidence.
I presented some ideas to you that would help you to find the evidence you are looking for and you completely rejected them.
This means you have not considered all of the evidence.

You have stated that the evidence is all around me and that the answer is within myself. But even this I have to remain undecided on as well. Even everything you have pointed out to me is a debatable argument that I am undecided on as well. To rely on my own inner answer would be relying on my feelings. Feelings are not rational or reliable.

 

[allfoak]

You have stated that the evidence is all around me and that the answer is within myself. But even this I have to remain undecided on as well. Even everything you have pointed out to me is a debatable argument that I am undecided on as well. To rely on my own inner answer would be relying on my feelings. Feelings are not rational or reliable.

I told you that i would debate it with you.
I never said feelings were irrational or unreliable.
I said they should be used as a guide.
Like a compass.

 

[Spideymon77]

I am in an undecided mindset leaning a bit towards the idea that such religions are fear mongering nonsense

When I was losing my Faith, the last thing that kept me believing was the fear of Hell. I believe that Hell is a tactic to keep people in Faith the same way "I'm going to beat you." is a tactic abusive spouses say to keep their significant other from leaving.

 

[InChrist]

Yet, I would ask you if you didn't just find exactly what you were expecting to find, due to the immense influence of your environment growing up?

Have you never noticed -- a Hindu never sees the virgin Mary or Jesus in an oil slick or burnt slice of toast? Nor would an ink-blot make a Christian think of an elephant-headed god. Our imaginations conjure up what we're already familiar with, what we've been immersed in since we were first able to perceive.

I don't think your assessment of one being limited by their environment is necessarily accurate. There are too many examples of Hindus, Buddhists, etc. who were immersed in the religion of their upbringing, yet in their search for truth have come to know Jesus Christ.

"Maharaj grew up in a Hindu community in Trinidad and Tobago. Trained as a holy yogi, he went on a search for truth and eventually found Jesus Christ instead of Brahma."
Rabi Maharaj - Wikipedia

 

[Janet Waters]

I would have to live for him if I believed in him due to hell. But since I don't believe in him, then Christianity is just a waste of time then. However, I do wish to debate anyway about it.

Read everything I have already said in my opening post here. Reading more of the bible or anything else will not convince me he is real. Nothing is going to convince me since my honest mindset would be an undecided position.

There are some who follow God (and/or Christ) out of FEAR of retribution and yet there are others who follow God out of LOVE through their FAITH. Fear and Faith cannot be present at the same time. The belief system a person ascribes to (whether living out of Fear or Faith) will determine which Church they go to (addressing one motivation or the other).

 

[InChrist]

When I was losing my Faith, the last thing that kept me believing was the fear of Hell. I believe that Hell is a tactic to keep people in Faith the same way "I'm going to beat you." is a tactic abusive spouses say to keep their significant other from leaving.

I find this very sad and it is obvious, at least from my perspective, that if it was only fear which was the last thing that kept you from losing your "faith" then your faith was faith in something else other than the Person of Jesus Christ.

I have been closely involved with a friend who has been dealing with the difficulty of getting away from an abusive spouse over the past year. The situation is not comparable in the least to leaving the Creator God of love...who sadly, but willingly lets people turn their back and walk away as they so choose.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I don't think your assessment of one being limited by their environment is necessarily accurate. There are too many examples of Hindus, Buddhists, etc. who were immersed in the religion of their upbringing, yet in their search for truth have come to know Jesus Christ.

"Maharaj grew up in a Hindu community in Trinidad and Tobago. Trained as a holy yogi, he went on a search for truth and eventually found Jesus Christ instead of Brahma."
Rabi Maharaj - Wikipedia

Sorry, but you claim "too many examples," and give me only one. What do you actually mean by "too many examples?" With one example as the standard, I could probably claim that leaden apples are golden planets.

 

[Spideymon77]

I find this very sad and it is obvious, at least from my perspective, that if it was only fear which was the last thing that kept you from losing your "faith" then your faith was faith in something else other than the Person of Jesus Christ.

I was trying to be completely devoted to Christ. In that time of my life, I felt a disconnect with God. Reading the Bible made my head spin.

I have been closely involved with a friend who has been dealing with the difficulty of getting away from an abusive spouse over the past year. The situation is not comparable in the least to leaving the Creator God of love...who sadly, but willingly lets people turn their back and walk away as they so choose.

I am sorry for your friend and the situation you are in. Although I have not experienced any physical or mental harm, I felt allot of emotional pain. I didn't simply leave, it was hard. I felt like a wasted my time. It may not be comparable to your situation, but leaving the belief of God behind me affected me greatly.

 

[Janet Waters]

there are lots people supporting the idea of hell.to be a non believer does not mean you you must not know what the Bible teaches. start from scratch to know the truth. you are scared to be punished and it is quite natural.
in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked,after death,are punished forever.
the Bible indicates whether the dead experience pain.we read in Eccl.9:5,10 ''the living are conscious that they will die;but as for the dead,they are conscious of nothing at all....all that your hand finds to do do with your very power for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom inSheol;,the place that your are going"
''sheol''-hebrew
''hai'des"-greek equivalent -------------- both words mean"the common grave of dead mankind''
KJ translated the word "sheol"--''hell'
i think you are very intelligent and meek person )))

Ecclesiastes 9:3-5,10
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 ¶For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

I am sorry to burst your scriptural answer...however

If you read those scriptures in the correct formate and in CONTEXT you will understand, the intended message, that it is better to be as a living lowly-dog than a dead mighty-lion.....because the lowly-dog is still living and as such he has hope (since he can continue to repent of his ways and change them). No matter how great the lion was....the dead lion's probationary period of time (designed as a time to repent and change) has been spent and he can no longer progress to his desired goal after he dies. He is dead and without the hope of repentance....therefore his mightiness before men will be forgotten.

 

[Janet Waters]

As usual it is used as a threat.

Hell does not exist, end of.

Hell can be described as a condition and/or place. People who live on earth can experience earthlife as a hell (it is a product of the mind). Also those who die, can find themselves either in paradise or a state of hell (also called spirit-prison). This state is an unhappy place where there is an end to progression and knowledge--this is both a mental condition and place which one goes to temporarily before the Final Judgement. There is another eternal place where the damned go (both a state of mind and place) and it is gained as a final judgment.

The act of damning.....means a stop in progression and learning. This can be experienced while living in mortality, while living in the spiritworld awaiting the Final Judgment, and finally, the end result after the Final Judgment.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Also those who die, can find themselves either in paradise or a state of hell (also called spirit-prison).

Actually, I rather suspect that those who die cannot find themselves in any place or state -- they are not, they no longer exist, there is nothing that it is like to be dead -- (or in the words of Monte Python, "This is a dead parrot!")

 

[InChrist]

Sorry, but you claim "too many examples," and give me only one. What do you actually mean by "too many examples?" With one example as the standard, I could probably claim that leaden apples are golden planets.

How many of the hundreds of testimonies of those from other cultures who have come to know Christ am I supposed to post on a forum? Besides, anyone who truly cares to read of other examples can find them readily enough.

 

[InChrist]

I was trying to be completely devoted to Christ. In that time of my life, I felt a disconnect with God. Reading the Bible made my head spin.


I am sorry for your friend and the situation you are in. Although I have not experienced any physical or mental harm, I felt allot of emotional pain. I didn't simply leave, it was hard. I felt like a wasted my time. It may not be comparable to your situation, but leaving the belief of God behind me affected me greatly.

What do you mean by "completely devoted to Christ"? I find no "trying" required in having a loving relationship with Christ.... just freedom, peace and rest. I will say that before I knew Jesus I did feel distant from God and reading the Bible was always pretty confusing.

 

[Janet Waters]

......And more to the point, you could lead an exemplary life but fail to accept god and his son and you are still sent there!!

Jesus Christ is our personal Savior he is not an uncaring collective Savior. God determines what is just and merciful based upon LAW as well as our individual circumstances and our personal knowledge about what is right and wrong.

Jesus Christ has paid the PENALITY of sin (which is death and hell) for all those who turn to him, repent, and change their ways. But what of all the trillions of people who have lived in times and places when the true Gospel of Jesus Christ was not available.....are they all damned because of it? It depends on what your interpretation of....damned is....

Damned actually means to be stopped in learning and in personal and spiritual progression. Those who don't have a knowledge of the truth...are damned....in the sense their progression has been stopped. Will they also continue to be in this state after death? Yes but then God's mercy will allow them to be taught that which they didn't have the opportunity to learn while in life. So their progression can start again....only after they look to the Savior and believe on His name. This is the condition one will find themselves in after we leave this mortallife awaiting the FINAL JUDGMENT (where we will be assigned our varied eternal rewards or eternal punishment).

Yet a mass murderer who repents near the end of his life and accepts JC and finds god, is in. What absolute rubbish justice that is.

Deathbed repentance is not a way to fool or force God into forgiving our sins. And there are some sins which are not so easily rescinded, by a "I'm sorry." There are also unpardonable sins, one of which is the "sin against the Holy Ghost," and the other can be the issue of murdering innocent blood. (The eternal consequence of King David comes to mind concerning the death of Uriah---which sin was not rescinded even after years of repentance).

A person may attempt to be forgiven of these sins.....but whether or not God forgives is another matter. Ultimately, God knows what is in our heart and he judges us accordingly.

Sorry, but hell is a man-made concept invented to keep the flock under control.

I am sure that conspiring men have used the "punishment of hell"....as a political tactic to control the masses. However hell, in it's varied forms.....is a reality and still exists.