Oh I see where you're going. To believe a god exists you must know about this god, and to have no belief in this god you don't need to know about this god.
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*[I believe] Atheism is an absurd worldview
- Thread starter Gambit
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Curious George
Veteran Member
remove god from the equation for a moment. I am saying that we cannot speak of belief without also talking about knowledge. To talk of a belief that a chair is in front of you requires expressing a belief that a chair=chair. Knowledge is inextricably tied to belief, with good reason. Beliefs are based on other beliefs. And knowledge is a justified true belief. If you follow the train backward you will see that you need to first assume some belief is justified and true.
Yeah, I think I get it. I can have a belief in something but I have to know what that something is. I can have no belief in something with or without knowing what that something is. I'm with you there.
outhouse
Atheistically
I think some 4 B people do the exact opposite.
They have faith not knowledge that guides belief.
outhouse
Atheistically
That is an older philosophy
Belief can graduate into knowledge.
YOU do not believe 2 + 2 = 4 You know the answer is 4. 4 is not a belief.
Curious George
Veteran Member
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2+2=4 is considered a belief by many. An a priori analytic belief by some and a a priori synthetic belief by others. But to believe something is to assert it as most likely true to absolutely true. Are you suggesting that you do not assert that 2+2=4 is true. that seems contradictory to knowing that 2+2=4.
outhouse
Atheistically
Factually False.
Belief can be tied to faith, which means belief with no evidence at all.
Belief has nothing to do with the actual truth.
outhouse
Atheistically
There is a difference between belief and knowledge.
While a first grader may believe the answer is 4 because he is not sure, most adults know the answer is 4 there is no belief about it.
Belief = not sure but I think it is
Knowledge = know
I think I know what he means. 2+2=4. To believe or know that 2+2=4 you must know what 2 is and + is and = is and 4 is.
Curious George
Veteran Member
Something needn't be true to be asserted as most likely true or absolutely true. One can do that with faith, I never suggested otherwise.
Curious George
Veteran Member
Belief =/= not sure but I think.
If a believes x, a asserts x is true. I suppose that you could change assert to holds, because assert allows for lying which obviously wouldn't be belief. But either way you should get my point.
It doesn't help to define a term with the term itself as you have done here with knowledge=know
Midnight Rain
Well-Known Member
They might know 二加二等于四. You might know 二加二等于四. But you don't know what 二,加,等,于 or 四 is. But your knowledge would be the same.
Curious George
Veteran Member
Yes, but math gets a little tricky. Kant suggested math was a priori synthetic knowledge. So given the terms 2+2= and with knowledge of the term 4 we can also do the math to know that 2+2=4.
The first grader who does the math wrong or just guesses knows what the terms are but is making an error in justification. Alternatively, if they guess the right answer but did not do the math, then they have still made an error in justification so they don't know.
What outhouse is referring to is the concept that after doing the math, and understanding the math 2+2=4 becomes a definition like 2 or + or 4. We can then rely on this knowledge as surely as we can rely on the definition of a chair. But even the definition of a chair is still a belief. It is just a justified true belief that we must assume true, and in the case of 2+2=4 is true in a specific system.
outhouse
Atheistically
Has nothing to do with "rely"
It has everything to do with the DIFFERENCE between BELIEF and KNOW.
They are not the same
Curious George
Veteran Member
We needn't the symbols to know what 2 + = or 4 mean. It is knowledge of the concept not knowledge of the symbols that is necessary.
Curious George
Veteran Member
Know here is to believe the definition is just so, for just such reasoning, and have that definition be just so for just such reasoning.
Hence, justified true belief. You insist upon a difference but do not elaborate on one. A justified true belief is not uncertain, nor is it untrue, nor is it unreasoned. What difference can be claimed between a justified true belief and knowledge?
I think I see your point. What we see as knowledge is nothing more than more or less justified belief. We can never know anything. If a person says "I know this" I don't know this too, I just believe what he believes since we have no reference point where we can say that something is 100% true.
Whether or not the film IS objectively good doesn't differ from whether or not I think it's good. My judgement is meant to potray the movie objectively--that's the use of judgements. When I judge it good, I communicate that it's actually good. Further, there is no objectivity beyond that.
A proposition (belief/noun) supported by evidence, including relevant knowledge (justified), and genuinely portrayed objectively (as what is actually true).
Curious George
Veteran Member
No, what we see as knowledge must necessarily be so. What you are describing sounds like solipsism. I am saying things must necessarily be so, given anything. These givens are part of what we accept in order to order our experience. We can try to create a system without these and to some extent that works. But we can not deny certain things such as A=A and maintain anything. Since we maintain things we must necessarily accept this is so. Given this we are given math etc. From acceptance of this a priori knowledge, we can order our experiences and get to other knowledge.