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I believe in Creation ...and Evolution

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Passerbye said:
The things that have been quoted are poetry saying how great God is by saying, the earth cannot be moved. I see it as the orbit the earth has been set in; however there are many ways of interpreting this.
There are many ways of interpreting pretty much everything in the Bible. You are not the only one to pick and choose as you see fit.

God said he did something in contrary to the way evolution is said to have happened, thus it is eliminated in my opinion.
But that's just the thing--he didn't say anything contrary to evolution. He could have easily included evolution in his 6-day creation, and he never said that he didn't. He really doesn't specify anything about his methods at all. It would make as much sense to claim that God did things contrary to creationism.

About the picture posted I would first like to say: Beautiful, then I would like to ask you what exactly you want me to say about this. If it is about how it formed then I don’t see how the worldwide flood could not have formed it.
I agree--it is very beautiful. It's Bryce Canyon National Park in Utah.

As for how it was formed, a single flood lasting 40 days could not have formed those rocks, but you're on the right track. The shapes of the Bryce Canyon formations were formed by an approximate total of 29 different times that that area was covered by ocean with dry periods in between, and frequent earthquakes, as is evidenced by the layers and fossils in the rock. Such methods require millions of years to acheive such a result.

Many contest these scientific findings in favor of their flood, but even you could test them at your own home if you wanted. For example, you could take a hunk of sandstone, put it in a swirling bucket of water for 40 days, add in whatever variables you'd like, and let me know how eroded your rock is once the experiment is over. I predict, "not much".

There is further evidence to support the fact that 40 days of flood would not be enough to shape any rock, let alone sandstone, but I won't post it unless you want it.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Passerbye,

I have chosen to address your alleged evidence for creationism in an entirely separate post, because I feel it is that important.

First, human accounts of the events
First of all, there were no humans around during the time of the creation to make an account about anything. Secondly, through the course of human history, there have been many "accounts" about many "events". All divine inspiration aside, the creation stories of the Bible can be given no more credence than the creation stories of the Mithra, or of the Greeks, Romans, Celts, Norse, etc.

then data that when looked at for evolution seems to evolutionists to back them up
I was expecting this one.

Allow me to clarify an important point for you: Just because evolution might be wrong, (which for the record, I do not think it is), doesn't mean that creationism is automatically right. Although I was expecting it, I am extremely disappointed that you would mention anti-evolution arguments in place of pro-creation arguments, because the two are NOT interchangable. In order to be considered a valid scientific theory, creationism actually has to be able to present evidence of its own. I won't even address your arguments against evolution at this time because they are completely irrelevent to the point you are trying to make, although you do not seem to realize it.

Scroll up… have fun.
Passerbye, you make me sad. When I wrote the paragraph above I did not realize that your entire body of evidence "for" creationism consisted of anti-evolution theories. Perhaps I expected more of you. Either way, I shall give you a chance to redeem yourself. Find me some actual evidence for creationism, (which means that neither God nor evolution can be mentioned anywhere--no God, because that is unscientific, and no evolution for the reasons which I have already posted), and I will forget that this post ever happened.
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
Passerbye said:
How does science contradict that view? Evolution does (gonna probably get yelled at for that statement) but that is not proven yet (what I mean by proven is as far as something of the past can be proven).
Science contradicts that view because science says the Earth is old. Evolution is not proven--the age of many rocks, stars, etc. has been scientifically proven. What exactly do you think fossils are?


Do you base your watch on time or time on your watch. He set the lights in the sky to serve as markers for time, he didn’t put the lights in the sky to serve as things to base time off of.

If God didn’t put the sun in the sky we wouldn’t really know what a day was. Same with the stars making off the seasons
You just contradict yourself here. You admit there were days without the sun and then you say without the sun we wouldn't know what a day was. Maybe we STILL don't.

I deny things could be correct because of what I know of them. I know things about the interpretation of the word day in context to Genesis 1 so I see no way things that go against it could have happened.
And yet others can. How is that possible?


If you would like to hear my theories on that I will present them; however, they are just speculation.
One way is that God says that he was hovering over the waters (on earth.) Now, it says that he put the stars in the sky, which are far away from us now. What if… he was on earth and threw the stars into their proper positions. This would cause the light to trail behind them and still reach us constantly. This would account for the light reaching us. Basically God threw the stars, from earth, into the sky. Other speculations have been made but this is my personal one. It probably has loads of kinks in it that would need to be worked out. If anyone would like to assist in that I would greatly appreciate it.
...

...

...

Okay. God threw the stars. Yeah.

So you are saying that God made the fish and then the birds, and then went back in time to after he made the fish but before he made the birds and made the land animals. !WOW!... that’s kind of… odd… uuummm…okay… let’s move on.
No. I'm saying you haven't the faintest idea of the consciousness of God. He could make birds before fish and fish before birds all at the same time if He wanted to.

The mind is you… your body is you… your soul is you.
Also… Father is in the Son… the Spirit is in the Son… the Son is in Them as well… If you are in Christ and Christ is in you… the Spirit is in you and you are in the Spirit… you are in the Father and the Father is in you… then that expands the Trinity a bit. Expand that with all the people that have Christ and the Father and the Spirit and you have a large Family. Try seeing it this way: you are in your family and your family is in you when you all act together as one. It confuses you because of the language used.
This has nothing to do with anything. My point was that while many would say the Trinity is an impossiblity, you accept it. Then you say you can't udnerstand how God could possibly create the Earth other than in your view, so He COULDN'T have created it any other way. That is just sheer arrogance.
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
But that's just the thing--he didn't say anything contrary to evolution. He could have easily included evolution in his 6-day creation, and he never said that he didn't. He really doesn't specify anything about his methods at all. It would make as much sense to claim that God did things contrary to creationism.
As something to add here, God didn't PERSONALLY explain creation ever. Whoever wrote the pentateuch did, albeit with the inspiration of God. That doesn't mean though, that Moses (or whoever it was) could not have used language which the Jews at the time would understand to explain it all.
 

Passerbye

Member
meogi said:
Wait a second... oh, right, divinely inspired.
Yes
meogi said:
Yes, it does seem to back them up, because, well, it does.
Data shows nothing but data. A hypothesis about what the data means is something else
meogi said:
Mud slides, volcanoes. Time. Old earth. Check.
Why would time be required if there is a global flood? The Biblical flood would be more than enough to create all the mud slides and volcanoes.
meogi said:
This actually depends greatly on the location of the oil bed. There are oil bed's with no detectable C14 in them... and explanations as to why some have detectable C14 include deep living bacteria, and how radioactive the rocks around the oil are. But, the italicized above, is enough for old earth. Check.
Please point me to the reference of this data.
meogi said:
Right, layers upon layers of different types of rock. Old earth. Check. (If you're referring to old rock on top of newer rock... you need to look into plate tectonics... and the italicized words)
Yes, yes… old dirt on the bottom and new dirt on the top. I have looked into plate tectonics.
meogi said:
Do you know how mountains form? Might wanna check that out. Old earth. Check.
I know how mountains form. How does it point to an old earth and not a new one?
meogi said:
Ice age right after the flood? How the north and south poles are? Huh? (What are you trying to present here?) The poles themselves do present evidence... through the switching of polarity they've gone through since the earth formed. Old earth. Check.
The Ice Age that would result from the catastrophic flood explains the frozen animals. That is what I was pointing out. What does the switching of polarity have to do with old earth that is not accounted by a new earth?
meogi said:
I'm curious what these things are... quite frankly, until I know what you're referring to, I can't argue against it.
Answers Book said:
Are dinosaurs really extinct?One cannot prove an organism is extinct without having knowledge of every part of the earth simultaneously. Experts have been embarrassed when. After having declared animals extinct, they were discovered alive and well. For example, explorers recently found elephants in Nepal that have many features of mammoths.Scientists in Australia found some living trees that they thought had become extinct with the dinosaurs. One scientist said “… it was like finding a ‘live dinosaur.’” There are hundreds of “living fossils,” a big embarrassment for those who believe in millions or years of earth history.Explorers and natives in Africa have reported sighting dinosaur-like creatures, even recently. These have usually been confined to out-of-the-way places such as lakes deep in the Congo jungles. Descriptions certainly fit those of dinosaurs.Cave paintings by native Americans seem to depict a dinosaur – scientists accept the mammoth drawings in the cave, so why not the dinosaur drawings? Evolutionary indoctrination that man did not live at the same time as dinosaurs stops most scientists from even considering that the drawings are of dinosaurs.It certainly would be no embarrassment to a creationist if someone discovered a dinosaur living in a jungle. However, this should embarrass evolutionists.
There are references, from this book, to other books. I could give them to you if you are interested in looking up the references.
meogi said:
As with the above quote, you put quite a bit of trust into some of mankind's interpretations, but not others? I guess it is easier to believe that a drawing is a dinosaur than to believe science knows what it's talking about. I mean, of course it's easier to believe what you can comprehend. But, regardless, what pictures? Same as above. Oh, Dragons != dinosaurs. And if you want to count that as evidence, you're gonna have to show that they do.
I don’t put much trust into mankind. If I do then that is a problem I need to deal with in myself. Anyway, if a decision is to be made on this subject then some interpretations should be taken into account, while others are thrown out to accommodate them.If you want cave drawings of dinosaurs then I suggest you look up at google.com the following:“cave drawings” OR Petroglyphs DinosaurJust paste that line of text into the search field of Google. I stated that the evidence for an old earth is the same stuff used for a new earth. The only difference is the data is looked at a little differently, and is still well within the realms of science.
meogi said:
Well, interpreted as you have, it presents some 'very close to it' evidence... otherwise it's downright evidence for an old earth.
I don’t see how it is “downright” evidence for old earth and “very close to it” evidence for young earth. It seems to me they are both hypotheses with some data backing them up.
Credwen018 said:
But that's just the thing--he didn't say anything contrary to evolution. He could have easily included evolution in his 6-day creation, and he never said that he didn't. He really doesn't specify anything about his methods at all. It would make as much sense to claim that God did things contrary to creationism.
Let’s get something strait right here. I don’t have a problem with evolution. I have a problem with old earth, where the Bible says young.I have a problem with monkey to man, where the Bible says, “made in the image of God”.I have a problem with fish to mammals to birds, when God says he created them individually, and the mammals on a different day.I have a problem with life from non-life, when the complexity of a cell is too great for that to ever happen. I have a problem with people thinking that saying God took 6 days limits God, when saying he didn’t calls him a liar.Do you see my problems with evolution?
Credwen018 said:
I agree--it is very beautiful. It's Bryce Canyon National Park in Utah. As for how it was formed, a single flood lasting 40 days could not have formed those rocks, but you're on the right track. The shapes of the Bryce Canyon formations were formed by an approximate total of 29 different times that that area was covered by ocean with dry periods in between, and frequent earthquakes, as is evidenced by the layers and fossils in the rock. Such methods require millions of years to acheive such a result. Many contest these scientific findings in favor of their flood, but even you could test them at your own home if you wanted. For example, you could take a hunk of sandstone, put it in a swirling bucket of water for 40 days, add in whatever variables you'd like, and let me know how eroded your rock is once the experiment is over. I predict, "not much". There is further evidence to support the fact that 40 days of flood would not be enough to shape any rock, let alone sandstone, but I won't post it unless you want it.
Post please. PS: it was 150 days, 40 days of rain.
Credwen018 said:
First of all, there were no humans around during the time of the creation to make an account about anything. Secondly, through the course of human history, there have been many "accounts" about many "events". All divine inspiration aside, the creation stories of the Bible can be given no more credence than the creation stories of the Mithra, or of the Greeks, Romans, Celts, Norse, etc.
Not the point. The Biblical account is what I am referring to. The others are not inspiration by God. (Go ahead and yell at me)
Credwen018 said:
I was expecting this one. Allow me to clarify an important point for you: Just because evolution might be wrong, (which for the record, I do not think it is), doesn't mean that creationism is automatically right. Although I was expecting it, I am extremely disappointed that you would mention anti-evolution arguments in place of pro-creation arguments, because the two are NOT interchangable. In order to be considered a valid scientific theory, creationism actually has to be able to present evidence of its own. I won't even address your arguments against evolution at this time because they are completely irrelevent to the point you are trying to make, although you do not seem to realize it.
This is the “I believe in Evolution… and Creation Thread”. Showing that they cannot go together is the goal.
Credwen018 said:
Passerbye, you make me sad. When I wrote the paragraph above I did not realize that your entire body of evidence "for" creationism consisted of anti-evolution theories. Perhaps I expected more of you. Either way, I shall give you a chance to redeem yourself. Find me some actual evidence for creationism, (which means that neither God nor evolution can be mentioned anywhere--no God, because that is unscientific, and no evolution for the reasons which I have already posted), and I will forget that this post ever happened.
That should take some time, but… okay, I will try. Also, evidence for creation is more fitted for the “Evidence for ID” thread. I should go back to that one eventually.
 

Passerbye

Member
Uncertaindrummer said:
Science contradicts that view because science says the Earth is old. Evolution is not proven--the age of many rocks, stars, etc. has been scientifically proven. What exactly do you think fossils are?
Fossils do not prove an old earth since they must form as the result of a catastrophic event and must be preserved before the creature disintegrates, which takes a relatively short amount of time. (I am referring to mineralized bone fossils.)
Uncertaindrummer said:
You just contradict yourself here. You admit there were days without the sun and then you say without the sun we wouldn't know what a day was. Maybe we STILL don't.
If God made the definition of a day then he would base the sun off the day would he not? Since the sun was made not only to give us light, but also for us to keep time on. Same with the moon and the stars.
Uncertaindrummer said:
And yet others can. How is that possible?
Somewhere there must be a misconception. I don’t think it is on my side so I try to see your side and how you could see it the way you do.
Uncertaindrummer said:
... ... ... Okay. God threw the stars. Yeah.
Is that a problem? Please… share.
Uncertaindrummer said:
No. I'm saying you haven't the faintest idea of the consciousness of God. He could make birds before fish and fish before birds all at the same time if He wanted to.
True, but he didn’t say that.
Uncertaindrummer said:
This has nothing to do with anything. My point was that while many would say the Trinity is an impossiblity, you accept it. Then you say you can't udnerstand how God could possibly create the Earth other than in your view, so He COULDN'T have created it any other way. That is just sheer arrogance.
Because that is what he SAID. You are seeing it from the point of view of “I don’t know God so he could have done anything.” You don’t see because you don’t believe. You don’t believe because you don’t see.
Uncertaindrummer said:
As something to add here, God didn't PERSONALLY explain creation ever. Whoever wrote the pentateuch did, albeit with the inspiration of God. That doesn't mean though, that Moses (or whoever it was) could not have used language which the Jews at the time would understand to explain it all.
\Just to let you know… I believe in the BIBLE. I believe in JESUS. If you don’t believe in Jesus then you might not believe in Moses. If you don’t believe in Moses then you can’t believe in Jesus. You reject Moses so you reject Jesus. Thus you call Moses’ account a lie. I believe in Jesus thus I believe in Moses’ account. Thus your idea does not work with what is fact, which is the Bible. (I know I have said things in a “matter of fact” way that you guys won’t like. That suits me just fine. Complain all you want.)
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
Passerbye said:
Fossils do not prove an old earth since they must form as the result of a catastrophic event and must be preserved before the creature disintegrates, which takes a relatively short amount of time. (I am referring to mineralized bone fossils.)
So all the scientists who say the fossiles came from millions of years ago are wrong? All of them?

If God made the definition of a day then he would base the sun off the day would he not? Since the sun was made not only to give us light, but also for us to keep time on. Same with the moon and the stars.
God DID NOT make the definiton of a day. WE did. God does not go by the same time we do.

Somewhere there must be a misconception. I don’t think it is on my side so I try to see your side and how you could see it the way you do.
Ummm... becasue every bit of scientific evidence poitns towards an old Earth. Frankly, I know you must not know much of science because if you did, you would know that it contradicts your position.

Is that a problem? Please… share.
Look. If you can't figure out why "God threw the stars" is a problem, you have issues. First, to use your own words" He didn't SAY He did". But also, the sheer idea that you would go to the lengths to disprove science is amazing--God THREW the stars? What basis do you have for such an outlandish conclusion?

True, but he didn’t say that.
So? He didn't SAY anything. Moses WROTE it, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Most likely Moses was establishing the importance of the seventh day.

Because that is what he SAID. You are seeing it from the point of view of “I don’t know God so he could have done anything.” You don’t see because you don’t believe. You don’t believe because you don’t see.
I don't understand this at all.

Just to let you know… I believe in the BIBLE. I believe in JESUS. If you don’t believe in Jesus then you might not believe in Moses. If you don’t believe in Moses then you can’t believe in Jesus. You reject Moses so you reject Jesus. Thus you call Moses’ account a lie. I believe in Jesus thus I believe in Moses’ account. Thus your idea does not work with what is fact, which is the Bible. (I know I have said things in a “matter of fact” way that you guys won’t like. That suits me just fine. Complain all you want.)
I believe in the Bible as well, and I believe what Moses said was correct. Are you a Catholic? If not, you probably take John 6 as unliteral, even though it is the PLAINEST LANGUAGE POSSIBLE, and Jesus repeats it many times, and some of his followers LEAVE Him becuase of it. Yet you take it symbolically. So how dare you complain about me taking Genesis in a different way than the most literal interpreattion?
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
greatcalgarian said:
Go where:help: ?

Go for literal translation interpretation of the bible? And which copy of bible? KJ, NIV?
Actually... You must have missed my post's idea. It was that we DON'T always need to interpret everything literally.
 

meogi

Well-Known Member
How do you know? Oh, right, faith... or circular logic.
Data shows nothing but data. A hypothesis about what the data means is something else
Right, but evidence only points one direction. ALL sources used to date the age of the earth point to old. Anomolies are trumped by the overwhelming data showing otherwise. They aren't thrown out, they're re-tested and re-evaluated. You can't take one anomoly and require every piece of data to be re-evaluated.
Why would time be required if there is a global flood? The Biblical flood would be more than enough to create all the mud slides and volcanoes.
But not the fossilization. That's what I ment by time. Fossilization is NOT a fast process. This can NOT be used for a young earth model.
Please point me to the reference of this data.
Why don't you find me an oil bed with a good chunk of carbon 14 in it? I fell into your little trap earlier, and I'm sorry I didn't catch it then (I have a feeling it's gonna cause troubles now). There is no evidence suggesting carbon 14 is contained in any oil deposits, in any amounts greater than slight contamination.
Yes, yes… old dirt on the bottom and new dirt on the top. I have looked into plate tectonics.
Wait, I'm confused... you agreed with me and then flipped around what I said.
The Ice Age that would result from the catastrophic flood explains the frozen animals. That is what I was pointing out. What does the switching of polarity have to do with old earth that is not accounted by a new earth?
I think the Ice Age itself explains frozen animals. What evidence suggests there was a flood, and that it started one? And what of all the other ice ages? Was there a flood for each one?
As for the polarity switching... it fits with an old earth model. How exactly does a young earth model account for the numerous polarity switches the earth has had?
There are references, from this book, to other books. I could give them to you if you are interested in looking up the references.
Well, lets see...
Are dinosaurs really extinct?
All signs point to yes. Seen one around lately? Even if you did, it would have no bearing on the already dead, millions of year old dinosaurs. Amazing, yes. Evidence for a young earth? No.
One cannot prove an organism is extinct without having knowledge of every part of the earth simultaneously.
True, but lack of an organism in the large part of the earth we do see simultaneously, is evidence for extinction. Not 'proof', but then (thanks Deut) proof is for logic, liquor, and math.
Experts have been embarrassed when. After having declared animals extinct, they were discovered alive and well.
Embarrased is hardly the world. Excited is a better one.
For example, explorers recently found elephants in Nepal that have many features of mammoths.
Right. But not mammoths. 1 point for evolution though.
Scientists in Australia found some living trees that they thought had become extinct with the dinosaurs.
Wollemi pines? I fail to see how decendants of 100 million year old trees suggest a young earth.
One scientist said “… it was like finding a ‘live dinosaur.’” There are hundreds of “living fossils,” a big embarrassment for those who believe in millions or years of earth history.
This quote is referring to ancient sea creatures found still alive. I think the only embarrasment is the fact that more is not spent on underwater research... and again, living versions of old animals still points to an old earth...
Explorers and natives in Africa have reported sighting dinosaur-like creatures, even recently.
Ah, dinosaur-like. Similar to mammoth-like, perhaps?
These have usually been confined to out-of-the-way places such as lakes deep in the Congo jungles. Descriptions certainly fit those of dinosaurs.
Unknown things in out of the way, unexplored places!? Madness!
Cave paintings by native Americans seem to depict a dinosaur – scientists accept the mammoth drawings in the cave, so why not the dinosaur drawings?
Things like:
bishop_behemoths_lg.jpg

and
dino-art-wall-etchings-grand-canyon-th.jpg

and
incastone01x.jpg

?
For the first one. Is that the head on the left? Or is that a tail with a head on it? Why does it look so awkward?
For the 2nd one. What the hell is it?
For the 3rd one. Fake.

More like them? I'm sure I can come up with absurd interpretations of them, except, that's all these can be. Interpretations. It has no bearing on the rest of the evidence showing an old earth.
Evolutionary indoctrination that man did not live at the same time as dinosaurs stops most scientists from even considering that the drawings are of dinosaurs.It certainly would be no embarrassment to a creationist if someone discovered a dinosaur living in a jungle. However, this should embarrass evolutionists.
No, and no.
I don’t see how it is “downright” evidence for old earth and “very close to it” evidence for young earth. It seems to me they are both hypotheses with some data backing them up.
Like I said earlier, none of your evidence is actually pointing to a young earth. You're just taking evidence that yells: HEY, IT'S OLD, ignoring it, and going: "nuh uh, if you look at some of the evidence with these special requirements (that don't exist and aren't evidenced) then it could suggest a young earth."

It seems to me you're searching for something to backup your faith. Which is kinda self-defeating, isn't it? Unless you're a little insecure about it...
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Uncertaindrummer said:
Actually... You must have missed my post's idea. It was that we DON'T always need to interpret everything literally.
Thanks for the clarification. I must have misread your message :D
 

Passerbye

Member
Uncertaindrummer said:
So all the scientists who say the fossiles came from millions of years ago are wrong? All of them?
And all the people who thought the atom was the smallest thing in the world… and undividable… were wrong? All of them?

Uncertaindrummer said:
God DID NOT make the definiton of a day. WE did
How do you know? Were you there?

Uncertaindrummer said:
God does not go by the same time we do.
What Bible are you reading?

Uncertaindrummer said:
Ummm... becasue every bit of scientific evidence poitns towards an old Earth. Frankly, I know you must not know much of science because if you did, you would know that it contradicts your position.
Really? Okay… you believe in evolution… so… let’s see if you can give me evidence that points towards that… that also fits in with your old earth.
The only things that point to old earth are the dating methods… and the stars. Both are assumptions.

Uncertaindrummer said:
Look. If you can't figure out why "God threw the stars" is a problem, you have issues. First, to use your own words" He didn't SAY He did". But also, the sheer idea that you would go to the lengths to disprove science is amazing--God THREW the stars? What basis do you have for such an outlandish conclusion?
Not much basis but it sounds crazy enough for me to stick with until a better idea is presented. I know it sounds ridiculous but so does a lot of things, and I have not bothered to research why it would not be possible. It’s just an idea that I had and kept. If you know enough about physics to tell me why it is not possible then please share and if I have no way of backing it up further (which I don’t have much to back it up so that would be easy) then the idea will be thrown out (which I have no problem with).

Uncertaindrummer said:
So? He didn't SAY anything. Moses WROTE it, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Most likely Moses was establishing the importance of the seventh day.
Most likely God was establishing the importance of the 7th day. So he created the world in a way that would make it VERY important. Why do you think the earth is old?

Uncertaindrummer said:
I don't understand this at all.
Okay

Uncertaindrummer said:
I believe in the Bible as well, and I believe what Moses said was correct. Are you a Catholic? If not, you probably take John 6 as unliteral, even though it is the PLAINEST LANGUAGE POSSIBLE, and Jesus repeats it many times, and some of his followers LEAVE Him becuase of it. Yet you take it symbolically. So how dare you complain about me taking Genesis in a different way than the most literal interpreattion?
Jesus taught in parables… so in hearing they would not understand. This was used in the same manner as God telling Abraham to kill his son. God does not want a “fair weather friend”. It was also explained at the Passover what he was saying. He was also not speaking of things of the past. All this makes it useless to try linking an interpretation of this to Genesis, since they don’t have much in common.
 

Passerbye

Member
meogi said:
How do you know? Oh, right, faith... or circular logic.
I have faith in my Lord.


meogi said:
Right, but evidence only points one direction. ALL sources used to date the age of the earth point to old. Anomolies are trumped by the overwhelming data showing otherwise. They aren't thrown out, they're re-tested and re-evaluated. You can't take one anomoly and require every piece of data to be re-evaluated.
The evidence is trumped up theories. All methods of dating rocks and things like that depend on the assumption that there was no original material, of the thing being tested for, in the object being tested. It also depends on there being no other way it could have formed. And thirdly, it depends on decay rates staying the same. The little I know about the decay rates makes me lean towards them not changing, but I could be wrong. I know that certain isotopes, that are used to test how old something is, have been found to form in odd ways (sometimes in ways that physicists don’t understand at the time of the discovery). Also, I have heard that when you send in an isotope to be tested you are asked how old you think it is. And, I have heard that odd results come up and are scrapped because of how old it is thought to have been. I have not observed the raw data used in such circumstances of testing. Could someone find me some raw data that was used to date something? I would love to look it over myself.


meogi said:
But not the fossilization. That's what I ment by time. Fossilization is NOT a fast process. This can NOT be used for a young earth model.
Ever heard of Limestone Cowboy?
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/rapid-fossils-rapid-petrifaction.htm


meogi said:
Why don't you find me an oil bed with a good chunk of carbon 14 in it? I fell into your little trap earlier, and I'm sorry I didn't catch it then (I have a feeling it's gonna cause troubles now). There is no evidence suggesting carbon 14 is contained in any oil deposits, in any amounts greater than slight contamination.
Slight Contamination?
http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/C14e.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/c14.html


meogi said:
Wait, I'm confused... you agreed with me and then flipped around what I said.
I thought I repeated what you said.


meogi said:
I think the Ice Age itself explains frozen animals. What evidence suggests there was a flood, and that it started one? And what of all the other ice ages? Was there a flood for each one?
http://www.creationinthecrossfire.com/documents/CatastrophicPlates1/CatastrophicPlates1.htm


meogi said:
As for the polarity switching... it fits with an old earth model. How exactly does a young earth model account for the numerous polarity switches the earth has had?
Theories… but I trust them about as much as, or less then, my “God threw the stars” idea.


meogi said:
All signs point to yes. Seen one around lately? Even if you did, it would have no bearing on the already dead, millions of year old dinosaurs. Amazing, yes. Evidence for a young earth? No.
What says they are millions of years old?


meogi said:
Ah, dinosaur-like. Similar to mammoth-like, perhaps?
Perhaps, but I have not seen them myself.


meogi said:
Unknown things in out of the way, unexplored places!? Madness!
If you say so.


meogi said:
For the first one. Is that the head on the left? Or is that a tail with a head on it? Why does it look so awkward?
For the 2nd one. What the hell is it?
For the 3rd one. Fake.
Not exactly the one I was talking about. I was referring to:
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/dino-art-wall-etchings-blanding-utah.jpg
Text for Picture 1 said:
A book on Indian rock art sold at the park visitors center says, "There is a petroglyph in Natural Bridges National Monument that bears a startling resemblance to a dinosaur, specifically a Brontosaurus, with a long tail and neck, small head and all." (Prehistoric Indians, Barnes and Pendleton, 1995, p.201) The desert varnish, which indicates age, is especially heavy over this section.
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/dino-art-wall-etchings-montrose-colorado.jpg
Text for Picture 2 said:
Montrose County, Colorado:
These petroglyphs are attributed to the Fremont Indians who were contemporary with the Anasazi. They are found in Montrose county, Colorado and appear to depict a Triceratops, including the characteristic three horns and neck frill. Dr. Patton points to the etching.
What do you think?


meogi said:
Like I said earlier, none of your evidence is actually pointing to a young earth. You're just taking evidence that yells: HEY, IT'S OLD, ignoring it, and going: "nuh uh, if you look at some of the evidence with these special requirements (that don't exist and aren't evidenced) then it could suggest a young earth."
Nope, not at all. The “special requirements” you speak of do exist. Try thinking about the idea, and possible looking it up, before you throw it out. Otherwise you are getting mighty close to having faith.


meogi said:
It seems to me you're searching for something to backup your faith. Which is kinda self-defeating, isn't it? Unless you're a little insecure about it...
I’m searching for things to bring people away from the lies that have torn up society. I think that may be the same thing some of you are trying to do. Do you have a problem with that?
 

meogi

Well-Known Member
I have faith in my Lord.
Well, that's why I said it...
All methods of dating rocks and things like that depend on the assumption that there was no original material, of the thing being tested for, in the object being tested. It also depends on there being no other way it could have formed. And thirdly, it depends on decay rates staying the same. The little I know about the decay rates makes me lean towards them not changing, but I could be wrong. I know that certain isotopes, that are used to test how old something is, have been found to form in odd ways (sometimes in ways that physicists don’t understand at the time of the discovery).
Is this just your interpretation of: http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Sciences/LifeScience/PhysicalAnthropology/EvolutionFact/Radioactive/Radioactive.htm? It's awfully similar... the only thing I can say about the assumptions is they are correct. But they are also accounted for when dating something... also, no evidence suggests that the rate fluctuates (outside of supernova-ish things). So there's really no reason to discredit it...

Yes, an increase in c14 in the atmosphere would change how dating things with c14 in them... but that's now how we date most things. Or are you suggesting there was a sudden change in Potassium/Argon or Uranium/Iron too? Any evidence for such a change? (Saying 'if a global flood did X, Y, and Z, then yes' is not evidence, in my opinion. If's generally never are.)

Also, I have heard that when you send in an isotope to be tested you are asked how old you think it is. And, I have heard that odd results come up and are scrapped because of how old it is thought to have been.
Yes, I'm sure you've heard it. Is it credible? I know of dates being scrapped because they were done incorrectly (say... carbon dating a fossil), but not because the 'guess date' is off from the date found. Science is really bad about saying "Gasp! That data can't be! Throw it out!" It doesn't happen often (ever?). Anyone else know of any cases?

Can't help with the raw data atm, but I'll definitely look for some when I get back in a week.

Ever heard of Limestone Cowboy?
Yes, I have. (Honestly, I havn't heard much. Only seen the pictures... there's never really much explanation with them.) Do you know the differences between the types of petrification? The fossilization of dinosaur bones is NOT the same as the petrification of a hat or some guys bones with a boot or wood.

Slight Contamination?
Yes, both of those links show slight contamination (in coal, not oil). Especially the 2nd one... it's talkorigins for heaven's sake (and arguing against you). Have anything else that would suggest a large amount of c14? Or can we agree that any c14 in coal/oil is due to slight contamination?

Yawn. Too tired to go in depth. Still old earth. Unless the 540 million years ago is wrong too.

Theories… but I trust them about as much as, or less then, my “God threw the stars” idea.
Polarity switching is not theory, it's data. Don't dodge the question, how do you account for it?

What says they are millions of years old?
The minerals that filled the crevace left behind after the bone decayed away. Potassium/Argon dated. I'm sure you can pull some evidence against that type of dating from AIG somewhere... or maybe not.

Not exactly the one I was talking about. I was referring to:
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/dino-art...anding-utah.jpg
OMG DINOSAUR! It's tail's broken off, it's got wings, and it's smiling at me. Watch out for the elephant with the mandibles shooting out it's back too!
I like the turkey baster above his hand... and next to it... OMG, a space jet! Also, that's one hell of a large snake coming out of the triceritop's horn.

Try thinking about the idea, and possible looking it up, before you throw it out.
Thinking about it: Check. Looked it up: Check. Understood what it's portraying: Check. Looked at the evidence...
The “special requirements” you speak of do exist.
Not check. Again, what evidence supports a rapid increase in c14 (and how does that correlate to incorrect dating with any substance OTHER than c14).

I’m searching for things to bring people away from the lies that have torn up society. I think that may be the same thing some of you are trying to do. Do you have a problem with that?
Yes, I have a problem with you doing that. Mainly with the bolded part. And no, I'm not trying to do that... I'm trying to show you that the lies you think are not lies. And how do you even suggest that society has been torn up?

It really seems to me you're searching for things to validate what you believe. Perhaps not for yourself, but so you can convince others. What it seems you're not doing is looking at where the evidence points, but instead purposely looking for ways to go the oposite direction.

(On a side note, like I said, I'll be gone for a week, so any rebuttle will not be counter-argued until that time.)
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
um, the triceratops looks like a goat.
Triceratops doesn't have long back-curving horns like that...However many species of now extinct goat do. ;)

Otherwise it really doesn't look like a Triceratops at all...

Petrification is not Fossilization... :banghead3

wa:do
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
O.K, for a dumb twit who is too lazy to look it up, PW, what is the difference between fossilization and petrification?
 

meogi

Well-Known Member
O.K, for a dumb twit who is too lazy to look it up, PW, what is the difference between fossilization and petrification?
And I wonder how people can possibly stay ignorant to things for so long! :p

http://paleo.cc/kpaleo/fossform.htm
http://www.zoomschool.com/subjects/dinosaurs/dinofossils/Fossilhow.html is a more colorful explanation.

[edit] I guess I should clarify that the two are very similar, and intertwine with each other. Think of a venn diagram. Most dinosaur fossils are of the replacement type of fossilization, although there may be a few cases of permineralization (PW will know better than I would, I'm not exactly sure).
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
To be frank Zaid, most of that is over my head - I'll leave it to someone younger, with a sharper mind.

IMO evolution Cannot be refuted - neither can creation.:)
 
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