I believe Satan has brain washed most Christians/people.

[JayJayDee]

You are free to bow down licking the feet of whomever you like.

I do not feel the need to suck up to anyone.

Suit yourself.

 

[InChrist]

No two people translate the same thing in the same way, so the difference between the KJV and whatever version you are using is negligible since the two different lines mean the same thing.
And if there are all these "reasons," why were they not mentioned? If there was "more going on," why wouldn't God make sure his side of the story was told, rather than leaving it appear he condemned a lot of people, all in one moment, to an agonizing fate?

I realize that the various translations basically say the same thing, but I think occasionally a word or phrase may not be as clearly translated from the original language as it could have been into English and checking another translation or the original Hebrew or Greek is helpful. I use the NKJV most of the time and it uses "youth" instead of 'little children" and I've noticed that in the scriptures youth can and often does refer to those anywhere from late teens to thirty or so.
I also think that prayerfully reading the passage or the two lines in the context of the whole chapter or even the entire book gives one more insight into the overall picture of the event, rather than simply reading only the two verses alone. As far as your question, as to why more reasons or details aren't provided by God so we won't think He just randomly and extremely condemned a lot of people, I again think it is a matter of taking the scriptures as a whole. What I mean is that when one reads the Bible as a complete whole considering all that is revealed about God's character, His love, patience, righteousness, and justice is predominate. At least I see those things, but I realize others don't. For me it is a matter of trust. I simply trust the goodness of God and believe that if and when He brings about consequences He does so for valid reasons.

 

[Ingledsva]

I fail to understand your obsession with spells and sorcery in connection with God's servants when these were forbidden to Israel under penalty of death. (Deut 18:9-12)

Regardless of the age of the children involved in the incident with Elisha....they were old enough to know right from wrong. Servants of Yahweh were not to use their "powers" for their person gain or satisfaction. God would not permit it.

Those who challenged Moses' God-given authority in Israel also suffered the same fate. (Numbers 16)

May I ask what translation of the Bible you use?

Baloney. He claims to be the new Elijah, he does spells, parts the water, cleans the water problem causing miscarriages, by spell work - using salt - a common ingredient for spellwork. Look up the text.

You folks are so funny - what magic God's people do - is of God, - the same magic other people do, - is evil.

All you have to do is add the name of YHVH in your spell and your spell casting is OK!

We have had huge discussions on this magic/sorcerer subject - and I've even pointed you folks to Jewish museums with spell bowls, written curses, etc.

They practiced magic - cast spells for good, and for cursing, etc.

EDIT - Forgot to add - again - I have multiple translations on my computer, but I always look up the original languages.

Another EDIT - I forgot to add that in those magic discussions - we had Jewish folks telling us they did indeed perform magic - and they even listed the words for the different kinds of magic - and their meanings.

*

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As God is a reader of hearts, not just actions, he already could see that the inhabitants of Sodom were incorrigibly wicked. When archeologists have dug through the ruins of Canaanite cities and discovered the depth of the depravity displayed in their artefacts, some wondered why God did not destroy them sooner.

But if God is omnipotent, how could he have failed in changing their hearts?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I realize that the various translations basically say the same thing, but I think occasionally a word or phrase may not be as clearly translated from the original language as it could have been into English and checking another translation or the original Hebrew or Greek is helpful. I use the NKJV most of the time and it uses "youth" instead of 'little children" and I've noticed that in the scriptures youth can and often does refer to those anywhere from late teens to thirty or so.
I also think that prayerfully reading the passage or the two lines in the context of the whole chapter or even the entire book gives one more insight into the overall picture of the event, rather than simply reading only the two verses alone. As far as your question, as to why more reasons or details aren't provided by God so we won't think He just randomly and extremely condemned a lot of people, I again think it is a matter of taking the scriptures as a whole. What I mean is that when one reads the Bible as a complete whole considering all that is revealed about God's character, His love, patience, righteousness, and justice is predominate. At least I see those things, but I realize others don't. For me it is a matter of trust. I simply trust the goodness of God and believe that if and when He brings about consequences He does so for valid reasons.

Reading the entire Bible is one of the things that lead to me evicting the Holy Ghost from my heart and abandoning the church.
Love, patience, righteousness, justice, merciful, benevolent, these things do not describe a god who would demand infants be "dashed into pieces" and the unborn to be ripped from the womb.
Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
What sort of "loving" god would ever allow for such a thing? Patients does not describe turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt.
No, this "patients" you speak of is very common in stories of brutal dictators who say the are patient, but they never are and are rather quick to violence. And, as we see time and time again, God does seem to be very quick to extreme and brutal violence.

 

[Ingledsva]

I realize that the various translations basically say the same thing, but I think occasionally a word or phrase may not be as clearly translated from the original language as it could have been into English and checking another translation or the original Hebrew or Greek is helpful. I use the NKJV most of the time and it uses "youth" instead of 'little children" and I've noticed that in the scriptures youth can and often does refer to those anywhere from late teens to thirty or so.
I also think that prayerfully reading the passage or the two lines in the context of the whole chapter or even the entire book gives one more insight into the overall picture of the event, rather than simply reading only the two verses alone. As far as your question, as to why more reasons or details aren't provided by God so we won't think He just randomly and extremely condemned a lot of people, I again think it is a matter of taking the scriptures as a whole. What I mean is that when one reads the Bible as a complete whole considering all that is revealed about God's character, His love, patience, righteousness, and justice is predominate. At least I see those things, but I realize others don't. For me it is a matter of trust. I simply trust the goodness of God and believe that if and when He brings about consequences He does so for valid reasons.

God's character in the Bible is love and patience? Interesting!

Those of us whom cast off the "teaching," and read it with open eyes, see a murderous, spiteful, grudge holder, that murders the innocent, tells his people to murder for other people's land, upholds slavery, war, and rape, and in anger even sends his own people into slavery.

The Hebrew commit genocide against their own people, over-and-over-and-over, forcing the new" LOVE" God on them, - killing the kings, families, Priests, and people!

It has been oft repeated that the Bible needs an Explicit Warning Label.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

But if God is omnipotent, how could he have failed in changing their hearts?

Yep, - plus - the Canaanites are the Hebrew, as modern scholarship is showing, - and the Hebrew did everything they did at one time or another. = child sacrifice, multiple Gods, Sacred Sex in the Hebrew Temple, etc.

It is quite funny when they try to make this God or people somehow superior.

*

 

[InChrist]

Reading the entire Bible is one of the things that lead to me evicting the Holy Ghost from my heart and abandoning the church.
Love, patience, righteousness, justice, merciful, benevolent, these things do not describe a god who would demand infants be "dashed into pieces" and the unborn to be ripped from the womb.
Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
What sort of "loving" god would ever allow for such a thing? Patients does not describe turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt.
No, this "patients" you speak of is very common in stories of brutal dictators who say the are patient, but they never are and are rather quick to violence. And, as we see time and time again, God does seem to be very quick to extreme and brutal violence.

I think you are missing something when you read passages like this from Hosea in the scriptures. God is not demanding or committing the brutality. The scriptures are just blatantly plain about the brutality of mankind. The graphic language in that passage of Hosea about people falling by the sword, infants dashed, or women with child ripped up could apply to any and every war in human history because that is the behavior of sinful men and the scriptures do not conceal the depravity of human violence. The prophetic passage you cited applies to Samaria who chose to step out from God's protection, so this is a narrative of what happened by the hands of their enemies and the human violence of war which ensued. Another reminder of the terrible conditions humans bring upon themselves when in rebellion and living apart from God's wisdom. will, and protective care.

 

[InChrist]

God's character in the Bible is love and patience? Interesting!

Those of us whom cast off the "teaching," and read it with open eyes, see a murderous, spiteful, grudge holder, that murders the innocent, tells his people to murder for other people's land, upholds slavery, war, and rape, and in anger even sends his own people into slavery.

The Hebrew commit genocide against their own people, over-and-over-and-over, forcing the new" LOVE" God on them, - killing the kings, families, Priests, and people!

It has been oft repeated that the Bible needs an Explicit Warning Label.


*

Other than the few times where God passed judgment on wicked culture...after years of warning and allowing time for change, the accounts of murder and violent behavior in the Bible are a plain and detailed narrative on the sinful and violent condition of humanity.

"Other critics of Christianity have leveled similar charges, accusing Yahweh of “crimes against humanity.”

But are these criticisms valid? Is the God of the Old Testament a “moral monster” who arbitrarily commands genocide against innocent men, women, and children? Was His reaction to the sins of the Canaanites and the Amalekites a vicious form of “ethnic cleansing” no different from atrocities committed by the Nazis? Or is it possible that God could have had morally sufficient reasons for ordering the destruction of these nations?

A basic knowledge of Canaanite culture reveals its inherent moral wickedness. The Canaanites were a brutal, aggressive people who engaged in bestiality, incest, and even child sacrifice. Deviant sexual acts were the norm. The Canaanites’ sin was so repellent that God said, “The land vomited out its inhabitants” (Leviticus 18:25). Even so, the destruction was directed more at the Canaanite religion (Deuteronomy 7:3–5,12:2-3) than at the Canaanite people per se. The judgment was not ethnically motivated. Individual Canaanites, like Rahab in Jericho, could still find that mercy follows repentance (Joshua 2). God's desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than die (Ezekiel 18:31-32, 33:11).

Besides dealing with national sins, God used the conquest of Canaan to create a religious/historical context in which He could eventually introduce the Messiah to the world. This Messiah would bring salvation not only to Israel, but also to Israel’s enemies, including Canaan (Psalm 87:4-6; Mark 7:25–30).

It must be remembered that God gave the Canaanite people more than sufficient time to repent of their evil ways—over 400 years (Genesis 15:13–16)! The book of Hebrews tells us that the Canaanites were “disobedient,” which implies moral culpability on their part (Hebrews 11:31). The Canaanites were aware of God's power (Joshua 2:10–11; 9:9) and could have sought repentance. Except in rare instances, they continued their rebellion against God until the bitter end."



Read more: Why did God condone such terrible violence in the Old Testament?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think you are missing something when you read passages like this from Hosea in the scriptures. God is not demanding or committing the brutality. The scriptures are just blatantly plain about the brutality of mankind. The graphic language in that passage of Hosea about people falling by the sword, infants dashed, or women with child ripped up could apply to any and every war in human history because that is the behavior of sinful men and the scriptures do not conceal the depravity of human violence. The prophetic passage you cited applies to Samaria who chose to step out from God's protection, so this is a narrative of what happened by the hands of their enemies and the human violence of war which ensued. Another reminder of the terrible conditions humans bring upon themselves when in rebellion and living apart from God's wisdom. will, and protective care.

It says they rebelled against god, and for their rebellion there will be very dire consequences.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Well, I think being witnessed to or having someone share their experiences with you or how they see God at work in their life is much different than an authoritarian or abandoning parent misrepresenting God to a child. Jesus gives pretty strong warning and consequences to those who harm the faith of little ones. From my perspective I think religious parents can fall into being authoritarian or other behaviors which harm children, but those who live in a loving relationship daily with the Lord will also demonstrate love to their children.

I guess my point was - because accepting Christ is supposedly the only way to redemption, God is said to always be working out the way in which to woo you to the "light side". Supposedly giving you cues here and there, pushing you in the right direction. Where was God in the formation of a child forced "through the system" in a harmful way? Where is the gentle hinting and loving direction for someone who has only been shown a darker side to any of it? Doesn't everyone get their chance do "do it right"? If not... then what is the real point?

 

[InChrist]

It says they rebelled against god, and for their rebellion there will be very dire consequences.

Yes, it says they rebelled against God. The scriptures also say Israel rebelled against God numerous times and they then became targets of their enemies suffering the same brutalities of war. This world is in rebellion against God and look at all the bad things and violence which occurs everywhere daily. I think that when people whether it be those of Samaria, Israel, or anywhere rebel against God it is to step outside of God's protective care and open the door to harm from evil men. This is just the natural consequence and danger of being away from God as sheep are in danger to attack away from the shepherd. I think it is a wonder and God's mercy and intervention that anyone is yet alive and that we haven't all destroyed each other.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, it says they rebelled against God. The scriptures also say Israel rebelled against God numerous times and they then became targets of their enemies suffering the same brutalities of war. This world is in rebellion against God and look at all the bad things and violence which occurs everywhere daily. I think that when people whether it be those of Samaria, Israel, or anywhere rebel against God it is to step outside of God's protective care and open the door to harm from evil men. This is just the natural consequence and danger of being away from God as sheep are in danger to attack away from the shepherd. I think it is a wonder and God's mercy and intervention that anyone is yet alive and that we haven't all destroyed each other.

Then why has my own life improved since I turned away from god?
If things are so bad without god, then why are the Scandinavian nations, which are the most atheist nations out there, doing so well? Why is it that America, which culturally is Christian, have such a high violence rate, a fairly high poverty rate for the West (especially when considering how much of an abundance we have), school and medical care are not considered rights, there are lots of single-parent homes, and things could definitely be better.
But in Norway, they enjoy one of the lowest crime rates in the world, one of the highest literacy rates in the world, people are cared for, they have a very low criminal recidivism rate, and they don't have god like we do in America.

 

[InChrist]

I guess my point was - because accepting Christ is supposedly the only way to redemption, God is said to always be working out the way in which to woo you to the "light side". Supposedly giving you cues here and there, pushing you in the right direction. Where was God in the formation of a child forced "through the system" in a harmful way? Where is the gentle hinting and loving direction for someone who has only been shown a darker side to any of it? Doesn't everyone get their chance do "do it right"? If not... then what is the real point?

This is one of the best, most important, and difficult questions I have ever heard from anyone. I have this same question running through my mind often as I ask the Lord for understanding because I have struggled with trying to figure it out. My conclusion so far, ( I say so far because I do not claim to have complete answers or understanding) is that although many children are exposed to misrepresentations of God or even abuse by parents or others, God is still at work in each one's life. I agree with the biblical assessment of this world and humanity, that it is fallen an sinful. Since no one is an island unto themselves or lives in isolation from others we are all impacted by one another and one another's sin. This is especially true for children and the influence they experience from their parents or others who are responsible to care for them.
I have several friends who were in abusive situations as children. Some are now believers in Jesus and one in particular tells how Jesus used to meet with her and comfort her, even to the point that her abusive mother would leave her alone in peace because she was afraid to harm her daughter further. Yet, another has not put her trust in God although I know He has more than given her hints. He has pored His love on her, met her in her loneliness and saved her life. She told me herself of a time when she was so lonely on her birthday out walking alone on the beach when the 23rd Psalm flooded her mind and she felt a great peace. Another time she was camping in her tent at a retreat when in the middle of the night she said someone shook her and said, "Get out!". She got out and in that instant a huge tree fell on her tent....but no one else was around. I think God is at work in her life giving her the chance over and over again to see His love, yet she chooses not to respond.
I don't have all the answers. I think there are so many sad and terrible situations that children go through in this fallen world and by the impact of sinful people around them and then their own sinful behavior as they mature, but I trust and believe that God is at work in the midst of it all and uniquely in each situation providing numerous opportunities for freedom from the past, change, and a way to set things right.

 

[InChrist]

Then why has my own life improved since I turned away from god?
If things are so bad without god, then why are the Scandinavian nations, which are the most atheist nations out there, doing so well? Why is it that America, which culturally is Christian, have such a high violence rate, a fairly high poverty rate for the West (especially when considering how much of an abundance we have), school and medical care are not considered rights, there are lots of single-parent homes, and things could definitely be better.
But in Norway, they enjoy one of the lowest crime rates in the world, one of the highest literacy rates in the world, people are cared for, they have a very low criminal recidivism rate, and they don't have god like we do in America.

Without knowing all the details of your life I really can't answer why your life is better, but It may simply be because you are independent from your parents who were oppressive to your life, rather than God.
You other questions are valid and I don't have answers at this point without further thought and research which I'll try to do, but don't have the time right now.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Without knowing all the details of your life I really can't answer why your life is better, but It may simply be because you are independent from your parents who were oppressive to your life, rather than God.

My mom was very oppressive, and her parenting style authoritarian, but my dad was largely and mostly absent until he left.
But god was rather oppressive too, and he had my convinced there are things about me I should be ashamed of, things about myself I should keep bottled up and locked away deep inside, and his words were like floods of poisoned waters to my mind.

 

[Ingledsva]

Other than the few times where God passed judgment on wicked culture...after years of warning and allowing time for change, the accounts of murder and violent behavior in the Bible are a plain and detailed narrative on the sinful and violent condition of humanity.

"Other critics of Christianity have leveled similar charges, accusing Yahweh of “crimes against humanity.”

But are these criticisms valid? Is the God of the Old Testament a “moral monster” who arbitrarily commands genocide against innocent men, women, and children? Was His reaction to the sins of the Canaanites and the Amalekites a vicious form of “ethnic cleansing” no different from atrocities committed by the Nazis? Or is it possible that God could have had morally sufficient reasons for ordering the destruction of these nations?

A basic knowledge of Canaanite culture reveals its inherent moral wickedness. The Canaanites were a brutal, aggressive people who engaged in bestiality, incest, and even child sacrifice. Deviant sexual acts were the norm. The Canaanites’ sin was so repellent that God said, “The land vomited out its inhabitants” (Leviticus 18:25). Even so, the destruction was directed more at the Canaanite religion (Deuteronomy 7:3–5,12:2-3) than at the Canaanite people per se. The judgment was not ethnically motivated. Individual Canaanites, like Rahab in Jericho, could still find that mercy follows repentance (Joshua 2). God's desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than die (Ezekiel 18:31-32, 33:11).

Besides dealing with national sins, God used the conquest of Canaan to create a religious/historical context in which He could eventually introduce the Messiah to the world. This Messiah would bring salvation not only to Israel, but also to Israel’s enemies, including Canaan (Psalm 87:4-6; Mark 7:25–30).

It must be remembered that God gave the Canaanite people more than sufficient time to repent of their evil ways—over 400 years (Genesis 15:13–16)! The book of Hebrews tells us that the Canaanites were “disobedient,” which implies moral culpability on their part (Hebrews 11:31). The Canaanites were aware of God's power (Joshua 2:10–11; 9:9) and could have sought repentance. Except in rare instances, they continued their rebellion against God until the bitter end."



Read more: Why did God condone such terrible violence in the Old Testament?

This is bull, - and you are leaving out several things that were pointed out.

It is believed the Hebrew were nomadic fringe Canaanites.

The Hebrew did EVERYTHING the that Canaanites did, - that you are calling worthy of such war, murder, etc.

The Hebrew had multiple Gods - including a Goddess.

The Hebrew practiced Child Sacrifice.

The Hebrew practiced Sacred Sex in the Temple, etc.

*

 

[InChrist]

My mom was very oppressive, and her parenting style authoritarian, but my dad was largely and mostly absent until he left.
But god was rather oppressive too, and he had my convinced there are things about me I should be ashamed of, things about myself I should keep bottled up and locked away deep inside, and his words were like floods of poisoned waters to my mind.

My dad was often absentee and emotionally detached even when he was around and I think this leaves a huge emptiness in a child's heart making it difficult to understand God's love. I am grateful I had a mom who was caring despite the fact the she also felt emptiness because my dad was unfaithful and gone a lot. I was raised in the Catholic religion, but God was not at all personal or in any way a priority in our lives, yet if I did think about God I somehow always knew He was good. I think It may be possible that you have projected the oppression you felt from your mom onto God.

I am of the view that God does not oppress, rather He lifts one up and brings liberty. I once read somewhere that God humbles, but Satan humiliates and the words rang so true with me. This has been my experience anyway. I think a misrepresentation of God or a misguided version of Christianity imposed by an authoritarian parent can very easily cause a child to keep things bottled up or be ashamed of things that the child should feel free to share with God.

Just some thoughts, but I know we are all different and have different experiences.

 

[InChrist]

This is bull, - and you are leaving out several things that were pointed out.

It is believed the Hebrew were nomadic fringe Canaanites.

The Hebrew did EVERYTHING the that Canaanites did, - that you are calling worthy of such war, murder, etc.

The Hebrew had multiple Gods - including a Goddess.

The Hebrew practiced Child Sacrifice.

The Hebrew practiced Sacred Sex in the Temple, etc.

*

At this point I am not convinced that the Hebrews were fringe Canaanites. Even if they were, it is irrelevant. God called Abram out from his people and country to set him and his descendants apart from the culture of the day. All the practices you mentioned....multiple gods, child sacrifice, etc. were forbidden and the Hebrews were informed that God considered such things to be wicked abominations.

 

[jeager106]

This is bull, - and you are leaving out several things that were pointed out.

It is believed the Hebrew were nomadic fringe Canaanites.

The Hebrew did EVERYTHING the that Canaanites did, - that you are calling worthy of such war, murder, etc.

The Hebrew had multiple Gods - including a Goddess.

The Hebrew practiced Child Sacrifice.

The Hebrew practiced Sacred Sex in the Temple, etc.

*

I never knew that about the ancient Hebrews. Is there a link you have handy or point me in
a direction where I can learn more about the pre-monotheist Hebrews.
This is really interesting. I love learning more so thanks.
By the way, I've read a lot of your posts and you do make an impression.