I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[muhammad_isa]

..if the outcome is not determined until the choice is made, then there's no way for the outcome of that choice to be known until AFTER the choice has been made. Are we also agreed on that?

We don't know what the future is going to be .. we only know what has happened in the past.
From the perspective of a person in the universe, the future "has not happened yet".

G-d is not a part of this universe. G-d is not subject to time, as in our perception of it. The future is not hidden from G-d.
It is all about the nature of time .. that our perception that "it hasn't happened yet" is universal and absolute. You take it for granted that your perception of 'time' is a universal reality that cannot be violated.

Believers accept that time belongs to G-d .. can be known by the Master of the universe .. a bit like the well-known Dr. Who

 

[muhammad_isa]

@Trailblazer , since you gave this post a like, can I assume you are going to drop your cries of "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice" argument? Because I've told you many times that I have not claimed that God's foreknowledge does so.

..but that is what you imply.
You are implying that we lose our free-will if G-d knows what we will choose.
That is identical to saying that G-d is somehow forcing us to choose what He knows.

..and it is not "logic 101" as you claim. It is a logical fallacy.

 

[John53]

So life is pointless, everything we will do is known. It makes no sense. Why would a God bother with such a pointless system!

 

[KWED]

No you didn't. YUou simply asserted it. You gave no explanation at all.

What you did was like claiming that a square and a circle are the same thing by asserting, "Yes, it's a shape that has four equal sides that meet at ninety degree angles, but it doesn't have any corners at all."

Spouting mutually exclusive situations and asserting that they can somehow coexist has nothing to do with logic.

Given that even believers have wildly varying ideas about how God works, it seems to me that they are all just making it up as they go.

It's the classic cognitive dissonance of the religionist.
My favourite explanation was...
"Just because what god knows will happen must happen, doesn't mean we can't choose something different".

I can literally hear the mental gears grinding.

 

[KWED]

That's just more word play.

What you call "word play" is reasoned, logical argument.
Also ironic that someone whose very worldview relies on subjective and tortured interpretations of vague, ambiguous and contradictory texts, should accuse others or relying on "word play".

"You have to choose what G-d knows" is designed to be deceitful, in that it implies that you are forced to choose something when you are not. It's all a silly game.

Are you still employing that deliberately dishonest straw man. No one is claiming that you are forced to make unwanted choices against your will. It is simply that any "choice" is fixed and inevitable, even if you feel that it is a free choice of a desired outcome. This has been explained to you several times.

We have free-will. Legal systems all over the world acknowledge that.

We are not talking about legal systems. We are talking about whether divine predetermination/infallible omniscience are compatible with free will.
Any just legal system recognises that we should not be held responsible for things that are beyond our control.

If Allah determines the outcome of all events by his decree, then we cannot be held responsible for those outcomes.
QED.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So life is pointless, everything we will do is known. It makes no sense.

It makes a lot of sense. We have free-will. It is only your perception that if G-d can know what we will do, we must be automatons.

For G-d, the perception that the future "hasn't happened yet" is not valid. For G-d, it is as if it HAS already happened. G-d is not part of this universe.

 

[KWED]

It is not. The whole deception revolves around false logic.

And yet you seem incapable of explaining where the flaw lies. You simply repeat the assertion that "we have free will".

 

[muhammad_isa]

No one is claiming that you are forced to make unwanted choices against your will..

Oh .. really?

I don't know what you think free-will means .. to me, that is exactly what people are saying.
i.e. we have no free-will if G-d knows what we will choose

 

[John53]

It makes a lot of sense. We have free-will. It is only your perception that if G-d can know what we will do, we must be automatons.

For G-d, the perception that the future "hasn't happened yet" is not valid. For G-d, it is as if it HAS already happened. G-d is not part of this universe.

Exactly. A pointless exercise in futility, we are nothing more than a simulation.

 

[KWED]

I do not just repeat assertions. I can show you exactly where your errors in logic are

So why haven't you?

.. but you turn away from truth.

So more mere assertions then.

You invent a scenario where wanting to choose something is only an illusion .. obvious nonsense.
Either we want to choose something, or we don't.

Again, you misunderstand.
Of course we want to make a choice. And it seems that the choice we make is freely made.
However, it was impossible for us to have chosen any other option.

Think of it like this, a slave who is happy and well cared for is still a slave, even if they do not realise they are a slave.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And yet you seem incapable of explaining where the flaw lies..

False .. you just won't accept what I am saying.

i.e. we are free to choose if we can choose otherwise, if we WANT to choose otherwise

 

[muhammad_isa]

Exactly. A pointless exercise in futility, we are nothing more than a simulation.

What is your point?
G-d only knows what we will choose, because of the nature of time .. and not because He is orchestrating our every action.

 

[KWED]

Oh .. really?

Yes, really. Interesting that you deleted the part of my post where I explained what the actual argument is. Why would you do that? Hmm...

I don't know what you think free-will means .. to me, that is exactly what people are saying.

That is only because cognitive dissonance prevents you from understanding the actual arguments, because subconsciously you realise that there is a contradiction.

i.e. we have no free-will if G-d knows what we will choose

That is the logical conclusion, but it doesn't mean that you are forced to make unwanted decisions against your will - which is the straw man you keep attacking.

Also interesting that you keep avoiding the issue of divine predestination. Although not surprising as even cognitive dissonance can't deal with that paradox.

 

[KWED]

What a load of nonsense!
G-d cannot be wrong if He is omniscient.

Oh dear! That is pro-level question begging.
This issue is about the paradox that arises when you attempt to reconcile infallible omniscience and free will.
If we can make a choice different to the one god already knows, then he would have been wrong.
But, as god cannot be wrong, we must always make the one choice that god already knows.
Simply asserting his infallibility does not resolve the paradox.

It is absolutely false to suggest that we are forced to choose something.

Same old straw man, which has been refuted many times.

It simply means that G-d knows what we will choose of our own free-will.

Thereby fixing the future and making that choice inevitable, when we come to make it.

It is false to suggest that the reason why you will choose the red shirt is because you are unable to choose the blue shirt. THAT IS COMPLETELY FALSE. You will not choose the blue shirt, because you don't want to .. and G-d knows it.

But that isn't the argument. It is that whatever choice you make is fixed and inevitable. You are not thinking "I really want to wear the blue shirt, but something is stopping me". You think "I want to wear the red shirt", but that "want" is inevitable. You are unable to want to choose blue. Thus your free will is restricted.

 

[John53]

What is your point?
G-d only knows what we will choose, because of the nature of time .. and not because He is orchestrating our every action.

My point is that the whole idea is completely ridiculous and makes life pointless.

 

[muhammad_isa]

But that isn't the argument. It is that whatever choice you make is fixed and inevitable. You are not thinking "I really want to wear the blue shirt, but something is stopping me". You think "I want to wear the red shirt", but that "want" is inevitable. You are unable to want to choose blue. Thus your free will is restricted.

Nonsense!

If G-d knows you will "want to choose red", then it is not that you are unable to do otherwise if you had wanted to .. as in prevented .. it is just that G-d knows that you will not want to.

Saying that you are "unable to want to choose blue", is gibberish.
I suppose you will be saying next that nobody can want to want

 

[muhammad_isa]

My point is that the whole idea is completely ridiculous and makes life pointless.

You haven't said why.

 

[KWED]

Free-will is not violated unless you are unable to choose what you want to choose.

You are still labouring under this level 1 misunderstanding.
If what you want to choose is restricted by god's actions (whether that be infallible omniscience or divine predetermination), then your free will is restricted.

You say "If I cannot choose blue, then I have no free will".
That is a lie.

How is that "a lie"?
If there are two possible options, but you are restricted in your ability to choose one - for whatever reason, then your free will is restricted. Logic 101.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If there are two possible options, but you are restricted in your ability to choose one - for whatever reason, then your free will is restricted. Logic 101.

You are not restricted..

You may choose what you WANT to choose.
It is you who are violating the laws of logic.
You are confusing logic with human perception of time.

 

[KWED]

If G-d knows you will "want to choose red", then it is not that you are unable to do otherwise if you had wanted to .. as in prevented .. it is just that G-d knows that you will not want to.

That sentence does not make sense.

Saying that you are "unable to want to choose blue", is gibberish.

No it isn't. You are just unable to understand the concept.
Imagine someone who can control your thoughts. Then imagine them controlling your thoughts so that you don't want to choose blue. They are not controlling the choice you make. They are controlling the very fact that there is a choice for you to make. So, when you choose red rather than blue, was that through free will? Obviously not.
Get it?

I suppose you will be saying next that nobody can want to want

If it is not possible, then yes. That is logic 101 again. You can't do something that it is not possible to do.