I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[muhammad_isa]

It's my opinion of what you describe. Isn't that the idea of a discussion, to share opinions?

Yes .. but you are too vague.

 

[John53]

Yes .. but you are too vague.

OK. You said your God knows everything we will do, yet we have free will to do what we want but he will still know what we will choose. Correct? Too me that is pointless, we're on a known path with a known conclusion. What is the point of it all?

 

[Trailblazer]

So life is pointless, everything we will do is known. It makes no sense. Why would a God bother with such a pointless system!

God didn't design such a system. Just because God knows what we will do that does not mean we know what we will do. The fact that God knows what we will do has no bearing on what we will choose to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet you seem incapable of explaining where the flaw lies.

@muhammad_isa has explained where the flaw lies numerous times, for days on end.

 

[Trailblazer]

My point is that the whole idea is completely ridiculous and makes life pointless.

Why would it make life pointless just because God knows what we are going to do?
What God knows does not affect us in any way. It is a perfection of God.
There is no logical connection between what God knows and what we choose to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK. You said your God knows everything we will do, yet we have free will to do what we want but he will still know what we will choose. Correct? Too me that is pointless, we're on a known path with a known conclusion. What is the point of it all?

Why does it matter if God knows what we will do?
How do you think what God knows affects what we will do?

 

[Trailblazer]

But none of that is possible if the future is fixed. What we "want" is fixed.

Nothing is fixed. It only becomes fixed after we make a decision and cause something to happen.

 

[John53]

God didn't design such a system. Just because God knows what we will do that does not mean we know what we will do. The fact that God knows what we will do has no bearing on what we will choose to do.

I didn't say it did, I said under that system life is pointless.

 

[John53]

Why would it make life pointless just because God knows what we are going to do?
What God knows does not affect us in any way. It is a perfection of God.
There is no logical connection between what God knows and what we choose to do.

To me it's not logical to say God knows but doesn't know.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Too me that is pointless, we're on a known path with a known conclusion. What is the point of it all?

Really?
I have no idea of my destiny .. do you know yours?

All I know, is that if I do my best to behave in a righteous manner, then G-d will forgive my tresspasses .. at least, I have hope in G-d's mercy.
On the other hand, if I turn away and do what I please, ignoring G-d's warnings and guidance, then I will have to pay for it one way or another.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't say it did, I said under that system life is pointless.

But why is it pointless?

 

[Trailblazer]

To me it's not logical to say God knows but doesn't know.

I did not say that God knows but doesn't know....
I said: What God knows does not affect us in any way. It is a perfection of God.

 

[John53]

Really?
I have no idea of my destiny .. do you know yours?

All I know, is that if I do my best to behave in a righteous manner, then G-d will forgive my tresspasses .. at least, I have hope in G-d's mercy.
On the other hand, if I turn away and do what I please, ignoring G-d's warnings and guidance, then I will have to pay for it one way or another.

No I don't and I never said I do and. I believe you know full well what I meant. Unless you're now saying God does not know our destiny?

 

[John53]

I did not say that God knows but doesn't know....
I said: What God knows does not affect us in any way. It is a perfection of God.

Yeah I know, was thinking about it in the shower and realised I'd typed that wrong. I had just been talking to my 92 year old mother and it's a very frustrating ordeal and incredibly depressing... anyway I'll try and explain my thoughts better but it will require some clarification.

God knows everything I have done and everything I will do correct? In fact God knows everything I will do from before i was born? If that is correct is there anything I can do to change that course?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I believe you know full well what I meant. Unless you're now saying God does not know our destiny?

I think I know exactly what you mean, but your conclusions are flawed.
..and the above is an example of why.

The existence of an agent who knows the future does not change anything for us. The situation is what it is. We have to choose the path we tread.

 

[John53]

I think I know exactly what you mean, but your conclusions are flawed.
..and the above is an example of why.

The existence of an agent who knows the future does not change anything for us. The situation is what it is. We have to choose the path we tread.

We choose the path to a predetermined conclusion making life pointless. In fact making every choice pointless because the outcome is known.

 

[muhammad_isa]

We choose the path to a predetermined conclusion making life pointless..

We do not. That is only your perception due to the nature of time.
The future is determined by our choices, and not by an agent's knowledge of the future.

The only reason that I can see that you should think otherwise, is because you see time as an absolute phenomena which cannot known in advance. You then suggest that a known future is determined by that knowledge rather than ourselves.

It is a flawed conclusion. It makes no sense to suggest that G-d knows what we will choose because He has predetermined what we will choose. It is simply wrong.

As far as G-d is concerned, "the pen is lifted, and the ink is dry".
In other words, while we perceive that "it hasn't happened yet", G-d perceives that we have already made our choices.
You might not believe that or think it is impossible .. but there we are.

 

[Tiberius]

Free will and God's omniscience are not mutually exclusive because what God knows does not prevent humans from choosing freely. As such, free will and omniscience can coexist.

Repeating the same assertions will not convince me.

You know what will convince me?

EVIDENCE.

 

[Tiberius]

You did say that God determines. I just showed above where you said that.
And then you did not respond to what I said in response.

Chalk that up to a miscommunication.

I meant "determines" in the sense of "figures out."

As in, "The weatherman looked at the rain gauge to determine how much rain had fallen the previous night."

In this sentence, the weatherman is obviously not deciding, "Okay, this is how much rain there will be," he is looking at something to find out about it.

I should have written that first line as:

If God figures out/realises on Monday that I will wear the red shirt for my lunch meeting on Friday, is there any way for me to choose to wear a different shirt AFTER that point? Yes or no.​

God exists in a different dimension from the earth dimension. There is no Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday or Friday where there is no time. Where God exists everything has already happened.

If that is true, then God can take no action, since to perform an action requires time.

 

[Tiberius]

That's right. What you choose is in flux until you make the choice.

I think I just struck gold. I think I understand where your misunderstanding is coming from!

You said: If I don't make the choice until Friday morning, there is no way that God can say on Monday that he knows what the choice will be.

God is all-knowing so God has always known what your choice would be on Friday. God did not have to 'wait and see' what you would choose on Friday!

That doesn't solve anything.

If God has always known what my choice will be, then I could not have decided anything different on Friday, could I? I was always bound to choose what God had always known I would choose.