I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[KWED]

I have no idea of my destiny .. do you know yours?

Irrelevant. God knows, and always has, and cannot be wrong. Therefore every event in your life is already fixed.
Remember that "The outcome of all events is determined by Allah's decree". And once again you have resolutely avoided addressing this.

All I know, is that if I do my best to behave in a righteous manner,

Well, that depends on whether Allah has decreed that you will behave in a righteous manner.

then G-d will forgive my tresspasses .. at least, I have hope in G-d's mercy.

That has already been determined. What happens tomorrow or the day after will not affect it because those events in turn have already been determined by Allah's decree.

On the other hand, if I turn away and do what I please, ignoring G-d's warnings and guidance, then I will have to pay for it one way or another.

Whichever way you turn has already been determined by Allah's decree.

BTW, what is "behaving in a righteous manner"?
Is it living a good life, doing good, helping others, being tolerant, causing no harm, etc... or is it just unquestioningly following an ideology that includes condoning or prescribing things like slavery, torture, using slaves for sex, sex with children, domestic violence?
Even if you never personally own slaves, torture anyone, have sex with a female captive, have sex with a child, beat your wife, etc - by claiming that such acts are morally acceptable in principle is not "behaving in a righteous manner".

 

[KWED]

The existence of an agent who knows the future does not change anything for us. The situation is what it is. We have to choose the path we tread.

But an agent who determines all future events by decree does mean we have no free will in respect of those events.

 

[KWED]

The future is determined by our choices, and not by an agent's knowledge of the future.

Wrong. The future is determined by Allah's decree.

The only reason that I can see that you should think otherwise, is because you see time as an absolute phenomena which cannot known in advance. You then suggest that a known future is determined by that knowledge rather than ourselves.

You seem to misunderstand, again. God's infallible omniscience fixes the future because it can be known in advance. That's the whole point. God knows our futures before they have happened to us.

It is a flawed conclusion. It makes no sense to suggest that G-d knows what we will choose because He has predetermined what we will choose. It is simply wrong.

How it that a flawed conclusion? It is spelled out in the principle of Qadr. Muhammad's father-in-law, close companion, and Rightly Guided Caliph - Umar ibn al Khattab - explained in in very clear terms...
“No amount of guilt can change the past and no amount of worrying can change the future. Go easy on yourself, for the outcome of all affairs is determined by Allah’s decree. If something is meant to go elsewhere, it will never come your way but if it is yours by destiny, then it cannot flee from you”
So, under that principle, explain how free will is possible?

As far as G-d is concerned, "the pen is lifted, and the ink is dry".

So the future is fixed, unchangeable.

In other words, while we perceive that "it hasn't happened yet", G-d perceives that we have already made our choices.
You might not believe that or think it is impossible .. but there we are.

It is the infallibly observing and recording those future choices that fits them.

But anyway, ignore the omniscience bit because I suspect you will never grasp that. Just address the more important, and unambiguous concept of predetermination.
Your obsession with one and ignoring the other is a bit like a person on trial focusing their defence on a witnesses testimony, while completely ignoring the CCTV footage clearly showing them committing the crime.

 

[KWED]

..and that is the crux of the matter .. your perception of time.
You see time as being an absolute phenomena that it is impossible to violate .. even by G-d who created the space-time continuum [ universe ]

I see the universe as being a creation of G-d, and G-d can see everything that happens inside this "bubble" including the dimensions of time.

What difference does that make, in practical terms.
An author can see the whole "bubble" because he created it. Within that bubble, the characters behave as if they are making free choices, but they clearly are not.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Whichever way you turn has already been determined by Allah's decree.

No .. events are not determined by decree, they are determined by our choices. G-d knows what those choices will be, because G-d perceives they have "already happened" .. He is outside the "bubble" of the space-time continuum that He created.

 

[KWED]

Don't worry .. you'll get it one day.

Oh, the delicious irony.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What difference does that make, in practical terms.
An author can see the whole "bubble" because he created it. Within that bubble, the characters behave as if they are making free choices, but they clearly are not.

That's what you claim, but it is false.

You feel that something that "has not happened yet" cannot be known due to your perception of time .. you do not accept that G-d can have seen us choose "before we choose it".

I, on the other hand, share the same perception as you that tomorrow "hasn't happened", but appreciate that for G-d, it has all happened already. He knows the result. He has seen our choices.

 

[KWED]

I understand what you mean but it's beyond my understand why anyone would believe it.

Usually childhood indoctrination. Occasionally traumatic or psychotic events in later life. It's why they are often immune to reason, logic and evidence when it comes to addressing their own beliefs (although they are happy to employ those tools against the beliefs of others).

As Dr Gregory House said... "If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people."

 

[KWED]

No .. events are not determined by decree,

"The outcome of all affairs is determined by Allah’s decree" - Umar ibn al Khattab (Close companion of Muhammad and the second Rightly Guided Caliph).

When it comes to understanding and explaining Islamic ideology, I defer to the expertise of Umar over the claims of a random convert on the internet.

 

[KWED]

That's what you claim, but it is false.
You feel that something that "has not happened yet" cannot be known due to your perception of time .. you do not accept that G-d can have seen us choose "before we choose it".

What are you on about?
Of course it can be known. Allah knows it, even though we can't.
And despite your waffle about Einstein, the Quran and sunnah clearly explain the concept of Qadr in the context of linear time. Remember that the book containing our destiny is written 50,000 years before creation. God isn't still/always writing it.

I, on the other hand, share the same perception as you that tomorrow "hasn't happened", but appreciate that for G-d, it has all happened already. He knows the result. He has seen our choices.

If it has already happened for god, it has already happened. There cannot be two separate futures. There can be only one. God already knows how it must unfold and we are simply following that path, unable to deviate from it.
You'll get it one day

 

[muhammad_isa]

"The outcome of all affairs is determined by Allah’s decree" - Umar ibn al Khattab (Close companion of Muhammad and the second Rightly Guided Caliph).

When it comes to understanding and explaining Islamic ideology, I defer to the expertise of Umar over the claims of a random convert on the internet.

Mere word play.
Umar was an Arab who used idioms, and believed the same as me.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If it has already happened for god, it has already happened. There cannot be two separate futures.

It hasn't happened yet, as far as we are concerned.
Life is a serious affair in which we make real choices.

Don't be so pedantic, and insist that G-d seeing us actually make choices [ that is hifdden from us ] means other than what it does..

 

[KWED]

Mere word play.
Umar was an Arab who used idioms, and believed the same as me.

Oh dear god! You are shown clear textual evidence of Allah determining our destiny by decree, from one of the foremost authorities on Islam, who lived side by side with Muhammad for years, thereby contradicting your baseless assertion.... and you simply ignore it! Not only that but you rewrite history and claim he actually believed your version of events, despite the clear evidence to the contrary.
This clearly shows your unwillingness or inability to engage in honest, rational debate.
You really couldn't make it up.

 

[KWED]

It hasn't happened yet, as far as we are concerned.

Our knowledge of it is irrelevant.
If your wife has an affair but you are unaware of it, does it mean it hasn't happened?

Life is a serious affair in which we make real choices.

Just more unsupported assertions. Under Islam, those "choices" are fixed, as has been repeatedly explained. You have even been reduced to simply ignoring the core Islamic principle of Qadr and the explanations of one of the most renowned Muslims in history.

Don't be so pedantic, and insist that G-d seeing us actually make choices [ that is hifdden from us ] means other than what it does..

I think perhaps you don't understand what "pedantic" means.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Under Islam, those "choices" are fixed..

..so you claim..
..so why do Muslims believe that we have free-will, if we are unable to make choices?

Basically, you are claiming that we are all inferior in intelligence to you.
No. The choices are real.

 

[joelr]

Isaiah 45:5-7
New International Version

5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting people may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

I believe that Isaiah 45:7 refers to fate and predestination and that prosperity and disaster are things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

In short, God is responsible for both the Good and the Bad things that happen to us, those things that are not subject to free will and thus are beyond our control.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure them because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the bad things happen are beyond our control. That is our destiny, our fate, for which God is responsible.

If you are one of the people who had a fairly easy life, a happy life, a person to whom mostly good things happen, maybe you do not think much about fate and predestination, but I think about it a lot because I was not one of those people. In fact, I cannot even imagine what it would be like to be one of them. It is as if they are living in another universe.

Fate, predestination are not proven and probably fictional concepts. But disaster certainly happens. Good and bad things do happen. Adding "God" to the mix is superfluous. We already fully understand the nature of reality and it's probabilistic. No God is needed to account for this. How we endure and our will has nothing to do with God either.

Fate and predestination are not real. Of course if you grow up in a certain location you may have more struggles than others. But the future is not fixed, it's impossible to have a set future state in quantum mechanics. The universe is not deterministic, this has been known since the 1920's

If God is fair and just, and God loves everyone, why do some people have it so easy whereas other people have such difficult lives? I know the religious apologists have answers but I do not accept those answers. I want to know why even though I know I will never know why.

Thanks, Trailblazer.

no. Children die before they are born. There is no personal God. Everything that happens are probabilities playing out. There is a small probability that some children will not survive birth and that small probability plays out. There is no God in that mix.

Probabilities govern quantum mechanics and we also see this play out in the macroscopic realm.
Some people have easier lives and some do not. Some get terrible illnesses at a young age.
But if you look at statistics every year there are a similar amount of young people with that same illness (until medical treatment and cures improve). Gods are not inflicting the same amount of young people with the same disease every year, it's our immune system following certain probabilities. The same amount live or die, it's all in the probability. Adding a God to this is just extra baggage. Until a God shows up and makes a sermon and demonstrates it's power it's a useless concept.
The ancients used God to explain everything, illness, bad crops, storms, disaster, invasion, death.
We don't need this ancient story any longer.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Fate and predestination are not real.

When I was just a little girl
I asked my mother, what will I be
Will I be pretty? Will I be rich?
Here's what she said to me
Que sera, sera
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see
Que sera, sera
What will be, will be

It is entirely sane to believe in the above, yet we are responsible for our actions as well.

 

[KWED]

..so you claim..
..so why do Muslims believe that we have free-will, if we are unable to make choices?

Seriously?
Because if you don't have free will, then the concepts of heaven and hell make no sense, and the whole house of cards collapses!
Don't you understand what "paradox" means?
Islam proposes two conflicting, contradictory concepts, both of which must hold true if Islam is to be believed. The paradox is not solved by simply accepting both concepts to be simultaneously true. Either one, or both, must be false. But of course, if that were the case, Islam would also be shown to be false, and that is not a possible outcome for you, so you subconsciously accept a less disagreeable, but irrational solution.

Basically, you are claiming that we are all inferior in intelligence to you.

No. I am claiming that cognitive dissonance prevents you from thinking rationally about this.
I will also be subject to cognitive dissonance when it comes to issues I am heavily invested in if a conflict arises. It is not a sign of intelligence (or lack of it), it is simply how the human brain works.

No. The choices are real.

They seem real, but if the outcome has already been determined by Allah's decree, or the future fixed by his infallible omniscience, it is merely an illusion of choice.
Basically your argument is "It seems like x is real, therefore it must be real" - but as we know, not everything that seems real, is real.

 

[KWED]

When I was just a little girl
I asked my mother, what will I be
Will I be pretty? Will I be rich?
Here's what she said to me
Que sera, sera
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see
Que sera, sera
What will be, will be

It is entirely sane to believe in the above, yet we are responsible for our actions as well.

Do you really think the little girl is responsible if she is not pretty?
It is also irrational (not to mention callous) to blame poor people for being poor.

 

[muhammad_isa]

They seem real, but if the outcome has already been determined by Allah's decree, or the future fixed by his infallible omniscience, it is merely an illusion of choice.

You keep saying that, but it is the disbeliever who claims that G-d determines the future, and not our choices that determine it.
You are "locked in" to your way of thinking due to your perception about the nature of time.

i.e. it is not possible to know future events "in advance" unless that knowledge is causing the events.

It is OK if you don't think that it is possible to know in advance what we will choose .. but the rest of your claims are not valid. They are all based on this view of absolute rigidity of the perception of time .. that time is absolute, and "now" is universal, when it is not.