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I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
You keep saying that, but it is the disbeliever who claims that G-d determines the future, and not our choices that determine it.
You are "locked in" to your way of thinking due to your perception about the nature of time.
Er, no. I keep saying that because that is what Islamic ideology says.

i.e. it is not possible to know future events "in advance" unless that knowledge is causing the events.
Still attacking repeatedly debunked straw men I see. That's the cognitive dissonance.
Allah's infallible omniscience does not cause events. It simply makes events inevitable.
However, he does cause events by his decree.

It is OK if you don't think that it is possible to know in advance what we will choose
What are you on about now? The whole point of this is that god does know in advance what we will choose - and by doing so, fixes that choice

but the rest of your claims are not valid. They are all based on this view of absolute rigidity of the perception of time .. that time is absolute, and "now" is universal, when it is not.
And you keep failing to provide an explanation for how this allows free will when our choices are inevitable.

And yet again, you are ignoring the thornier problem of god determining the outcome of all events by decree. Simply denying he does it is not an argument what there is conclusive textual evidence that he does.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Er, no. I keep saying that because that is what Islamic ideology says..
You know fully well that the creed of Islam does not claim such a thing.

Are you suggesting that your previous quote of Umar meant that Umar believed that he had no free-will to choose?
What nonsense..
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
And you keep failing to provide an explanation for how this allows free will when our choices are inevitable.

And yet again, you are ignoring the thornier problem of god determining the outcome of all events by decree. Simply denying he does it is not an argument what there is conclusive textual evidence that he does.

Before Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, humans were like the animals, under the laws of natural human instinct. Instinct is different from knowledge of good and evil in the sense instinct is more or less linear; 1-D, based on the circumstances. Knowledge of good and evil is a binary or a 2-D concept. It is one thing, but with two options. This extra option is how choice appeared.

If you are a hunter, you can track and find specific species of game based on understanding their instinctive nature. The deer does not have a choice to act like a bear to disguise his path. Instead all deer will behave a certain natural and instinctive way, allowing one to anticipate where to find them, even before you start the hunt. Instinct comes from the inside and is engrained in our DNA. It would be driven by the will of God in the sense of being preordained.

Knowledge of good and evil is not innate knowledge that is connected to one's species' DNA. Knowledge of good and evil comes from outside you and is a learned type of behavior. This learned behavior breaks down choices for behavior into two paths; good or evil, which often are both subjective and/or relative to the times.

A good example, are the marijuana laws of good and evil in the USA. These laws of good and evil are different in different states. In one state, marijuana is defined as good, while in the next state over, it is defined as evil. This is not consistent like a universal law of animal instinct. This makes this law subjective and not objective. You can choose this behavior in one state and it will be considered acceptable. However, in the other state, it will be taboo with fire and brimstone. The outcomes of your choices can be different based in which state your choice is made. Unlike human nature, which is the same for all humans, knowledge of good and evil is not uniform for the entire species. It can be niche for each culture or subculture. One size of knowledge of good and evil does not fit all.

In the Old Testament, Israel was often allowed to be conquered and even forced into exile. The Lord, through the prophets, would deem the correct and expected choice of behavior in advance, while these negative outcomes would be attributed to the bad or illegal choices of Israel. The good and evil paths were defined by God, in advance, but they would not always be chosen. This was often due to the influence of other cultures, who defined good and evil, for the same behavior, in other ways, due to the subjective nature of law.

Pork, for example, was not considered evil everywhere. But this choice was against the niche law of good and evil that Israel needed to obey. Choice appears when we have more than one option for the same behavior; eating pork. While the ambiguity of two legal systems that contradict each other makes what should be an easy choice, less clear cut. This is why death comes into the world; someone will be pissed off, even of you follow a law.

The Koala bear does not have a choice to eat or not eat eucalyptus leaves, since his behavior is under 1-D instinct. But humans can choose to have lettuce or spinach, which create a crossroads for choice, with sometimes one choice taboo in some places, and the other overly chosen in other places.

The subjectivity of law can be different in different places. This allows for the development of willpower, since one will be required to narrow your range of choices, based on accepting only one set of subjective law. Israel needed to follow laws that other cultures often defined in different ways. This was a type of training that allowed humans more willpower, leading to new choices at crossroads.

Willpower and choice is not as objective as instinct, but it does have practical value in that more options can be made available than is normal for instinct. For example, each culture has unique foods, which may have an unspoken taboo; bias, within other cultures; culture X is weird so their food is yucky. All these options combined, represent more options for food, which can expand our ability to survive almost anywhere on earth. Humans are omnivores, since this maximizes survival in any environment. But to take advantage, one needs the will to try, even if niche taboo. Once have the will to try, you need to make wise choices.

This change is behavior to 2-D learning, created a new type of human, with Adam the first of this new human subspecies. This new type of human was not based on biology and mutations, but was based on a new state of mind that formed after the invention of written language. As the external invention was extrapolated to new applications, it created a prosthesis for the mind that had the impact of repressing 1-D instinct. Instinct was sublimated with temporal and subjective law of good and evil. War appears when two competing law systems cannot see eye to eye and pose a problem for each other.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Basically your argument is "It seems like x is real, therefore it must be real" - but as we know, not everything that seems real, is real.
Basically your argument is "It seems to me like x is not real, therefore it must not be real."
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
I can understand why you don't believe such a G-d exists, but it does make sense.

..just like Einstein's theory of relativity makes sense.
Einstein said that "now" is only a perception that we hold, because time is relative to the frame of reference we hold.

Do you understand what "frame of reference" means in that context? Einstein showed how an event in time is perceived, is dependent upon the physical universe, and that time is not a fixed phenomena as it appears to be.

This is not proof that any agent exists "outside of time", but it certainly suggests that our perception of events in time is only that .. a perception.

I read an article years ago about Einstein and this topic. Einstein had explained it like time being a loaf of bread with thin slices. Each day being a slice of bread and no slice "disappears". Yesterday exists, today exists and tomorrow exists, all as one unit. Everything we have done in life still exists.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
There is no illusion.
You do have a choice, and you made it.

You merely state the obvious, in that "the one choice" that you make will be what G-d knows. Congratulations. :)

Those two statements contradict each other. I can't both be free to choose either (for example) A or B, if a defy knows before I choose which one I will ultimately choose, so my "choice" would have to be an illusion to me, no matter how this theoretical deity perceived it.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Those two statements contradict each other. I can't both be free to choose either (for example) A or B, if a defy knows before I choose which one I will ultimately choose, so my "choice" would have to be an illusion to me, no matter how this theoretical deity perceived it.
It might be an illusion to you..

If you ended up in jail because you choose to murder somebody, it doesn't really matter. You'd have plenty of time to ponder over it. :(
 
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KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
You know fully well that the creed of Islam does not claim such a thing.
You should be aware that the creed of Islam claims both things. It's there in black and white.

Are you suggesting that your previous quote of Umar meant that Umar believed that he had no free-will to choose?
What nonsense..
No. What Umar's quote shows is that he held two contradictory positions simultaneously.
1. That the outcome of all events are determined by Allah's decree (the full quote elaborates on and confirms the principle).
2. Heaven and hell as places of punishment and reward for our actions actually exist.

I understand how difficult this is for you to accept (nigh on impossible). If the penny actually drops, the only logical conclusion is that Islam was invented by unsophisticated thinkers. The very idea of that is impossible for you to even imagine, thus cognitive dissonance engages and your subconscious tricks you into holding two contradictory positions simultaneously. You don't even know it is happening.
However, if you ever do figure it out and leave Islam, like others before you will wonder how you ever managed to hold such an illogical position. I have spoken to ex-Muslims who still find it difficult to accept what was going on in their heads.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Before Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, humans were like the animals, under the laws of natural human instinct. Instinct is different from knowledge of good and evil in the sense instinct is more or less linear; 1-D, based on the circumstances. Knowledge of good and evil is a binary or a 2-D concept. It is one thing, but with two options. This extra option is how choice appeared.
If you are a hunter, you can track and find specific species of game based on understanding their instinctive nature. The deer does not have a choice to act like a bear to disguise his path. Instead all deer will behave a certain natural and instinctive way, allowing one to anticipate where to find them, even before you start the hunt. Instinct comes from the inside and is engrained in our DNA. It would be driven by the will of God in the sense of being preordained.

Knowledge of good and evil is not innate knowledge that is connected to one's species' DNA. Knowledge of good and evil comes from outside you and is a learned type of behavior. This learned behavior breaks down choices for behavior into two paths; good or evil, which often are both subjective and/or relative to the times.

A good example, are the marijuana laws of good and evil in the USA. These laws of good and evil are different in different states. In one state, marijuana is defined as good, while in the next state over, it is defined as evil. This is not consistent like a universal law of animal instinct. This makes this law subjective and not objective. You can choose this behavior in one state and it will be considered acceptable. However, in the other state, it will be taboo with fire and brimstone. The outcomes of your choices can be different based in which state your choice is made. Unlike human nature, which is the same for all humans, knowledge of good and evil is not uniform for the entire species. It can be niche for each culture or subculture. One size of knowledge of good and evil does not fit all.

In the Old Testament, Israel was often allowed to be conquered and even forced into exile. The Lord, through the prophets, would deem the correct and expected choice of behavior in advance, while these negative outcomes would be attributed to the bad or illegal choices of Israel. The good and evil paths were defined by God, in advance, but they would not always be chosen. This was often due to the influence of other cultures, who defined good and evil, for the same behavior, in other ways, due to the subjective nature of law.

Pork, for example, was not considered evil everywhere. But this choice was against the niche law of good and evil that Israel needed to obey. Choice appears when we have more than one option for the same behavior; eating pork. While the ambiguity of two legal systems that contradict each other makes what should be an easy choice, less clear cut. This is why death comes into the world; someone will be pissed off, even of you follow a law.

The Koala bear does not have a choice to eat or not eat eucalyptus leaves, since his behavior is under 1-D instinct. But humans can choose to have lettuce or spinach, which create a crossroads for choice, with sometimes one choice taboo in some places, and the other overly chosen in other places.

The subjectivity of law can be different in different places. This allows for the development of willpower, since one will be required to narrow your range of choices, based on accepting only one set of subjective law. Israel needed to follow laws that other cultures often defined in different ways. This was a type of training that allowed humans more willpower, leading to new choices at crossroads.

Willpower and choice is not as objective as instinct, but it does have practical value in that more options can be made available than is normal for instinct. For example, each culture has unique foods, which may have an unspoken taboo; bias, within other cultures; culture X is weird so their food is yucky. All these options combined, represent more options for food, which can expand our ability to survive almost anywhere on earth. Humans are omnivores, since this maximizes survival in any environment. But to take advantage, one needs the will to try, even if niche taboo. Once have the will to try, you need to make wise choices.

This change is behavior to 2-D learning, created a new type of human, with Adam the first of this new human subspecies. This new type of human was not based on biology and mutations, but was based on a new state of mind that formed after the invention of written language. As the external invention was extrapolated to new applications, it created a prosthesis for the mind that had the impact of repressing 1-D instinct. Instinct was sublimated with temporal and subjective law of good and evil. War appears when two competing law systems cannot see eye to eye and pose a problem for each other.
Cool story bro, but how does any of this relate to my post?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
It might be an illusion to you..

If you ended up in jail because you choose to murder somebody, it doesn't really matter. You'd have plenty of time to ponder over it. :(
1. If god decrees that you will murder someone, can you not murder them? (No)

2. If you have no control over an event, can you be held responsible for it? (Also no).

Seems pretty cut and dried to me. However, feel free to point out the error in the logic.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..the only logical conclusion is that Islam was invented by unsophisticated thinkers..
..or that G-d has blinded you from the truth :)

I'll stick with Islam, thankyou.
Your pride in your imagined superiority over believers is noted.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
1. If god decrees that you will murder someone, can you not murder them? (No)
I'm glad that you can answer your own question.
Not many people would disagree with you.

However, what "G-d decrees" is a complex issue, involving choices we make ourselves.
Unless you are certified insane, you will be held responsible.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
1. If god decrees that you will murder someone, can you not murder them? (No)

2. If you have no control over an event, can you be held responsible for it? (Also no).

Seems pretty cut and dried to me. However, feel free to point out the error in the logic.
The error in the logic is clear to me.
You imply that the reason you MUST murder the person is because G-d knows you will.
That is a logical fallacy. We have already stated that G-d knows that you will choose to. Hence the reason that you will murder is because you choose to .. and not because G-d knows.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
It doesn't go unnoticed that you regularly ignore most or all of the arguments I present. Wonder why that would be?

or that G-d has blinded you from the truth :)
So god has removed my ability to see the truth?
1. Why would he do that?
2. In the Quran, he says that he deliberately misguides people.
3. Confirmation that he removes free will.

Your pride in your imagined superiority over believers is noted.
I have never claimed any superiority. If you feel inferior, that is down to you, not me.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I'm glad that you can answer your own question.
Not many people would disagree with you.
As I predicted, you agree that you cannot change what Allah has decreed.
Therefore we have no free will in those matters.
QED.

However, what "G-d decrees" is a complex issue, involving choices we make ourselves.
How do our "choices" affect what god decrees we will do, if they themselves are determined by god's decree?

Unless you are certified insane, you will be held responsible.
Not if you had no control over the event. That's how "responsibility" works.

If a teacher gives a child the wrong book to learn for a test, is the child responsible for failing the test? (no)
Is the little girl responsible for not being pretty? (no)
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
The error in the logic is clear to me.
You imply that the reason you MUST murder the person is because G-d knows you will.
That is a logical fallacy.

No it isn't, and you use this like rhetoric, yet every time you're challenged to explain which fallacy, you don't respond.

Please tell us the name of the informal logical fallacy you are claiming was used??

We have already stated that G-d knows that you will choose to. Hence the reason that you will murder is because you choose to .. and not because G-d knows.

As KWED just pointed out and you ignored with the same old tap dancing nonsense, how can we have a choice not to murder if your deity knows we will murder, and we cannot choose what your deity does not know we will do?

You are the one using a logical fallacy here, by violating the law of non contradiction. Yet every time it is pointed out you spin your irrational merry go round.
 
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KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
The error in the logic is clear to me.
You imply that the reason you MUST murder the person is because G-d knows you will.
NO! Jeez, it's almost as if you are deliberately ignoring my actual argument, but no god fearing person would be that dishonest.

We are talking about divine predestination here, not infallible omniscience. Allah is determining the outcome of events by decree. He is deciding what will happen, not just knowing it will.

So, try again...
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
..and that is the crux of the matter .. your perception of time.
You see time as being an absolute phenomena that it is impossible to violate .. even by G-d who created the space-time continuum [ universe ]

It's your unevidenced hypothetical a deity exists in another time frame, we are dealing with the reality we perceive, you can't base a rational argument on bare assertions and imagined fantasies. In your hypothetical if a deity knew what exactly which choice we will make, before we make it, regardless of how you assume this deity could do this, it would render our choices in this linear time frame an illusion. Since our reality is a linear time frame in a physical universe.

I see the universe as being a creation of G-d,

And we care what you imagine because????

and G-d can see everything that happens inside this "bubble" including the dimensions of time.

Again this is relevant to reality how???

Our reality is a linear time frame, the fantasy you are imagining to string the consequences of your beliefs together is not a rational argument. I believe I have explained several times what a begging the question fallacy is.
 
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