I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[ppp]

..so what makes you choose it then?

God choosing the specific universe where that is his "choice".

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet logical reasoning has led me to the exact opposite conclusion.

Now, logic is describable in much the same way that math is, so if I have made a mistake in my logic, then you should be able to show me, and you should also be able to prove your logic is correct in the same sense that one can prove some mathematical idea is correct.

And yet you can not do so.

Your logical reasoning is based upon a complete absence of knowledge about God, which is what you are trying to reason about. For obvious logical reasons that can never work. You cannot make claims about how God would operate when you know nothing about God.

By contrast, my logical reasoning is based upon knowledge of what God is and how God operates, and what it means for God to be omniscient.

I have tried to explain why I came to a different conclusion but you rejected my explanations.

 

[Trailblazer]

I thought you said that you were going to drop that argument, since I have told you countless times I NEVER SAID THAT.

You KEEP SAYING that you cannot choose the blue shirt if God knows that you will choose the red shirt so you are saying that God's foreknowledge is forcing you to wear the red shirt.
Yet you are claiming that God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice. #514

You cannot have it both ways.

Lol, sure, more assertions, still no support.

The support is in scriptures, which is the only way we can ever know anything about God.

 

[ppp]

Your logical reasoning is based upon a complete absence of knowledge about God, which is what you are trying to reason about. For obvious logical reasons that can never work. You cannot make claims about how God would operate when you know nothing about God.

By contrast, my logical reasoning is based upon knowledge of what God is and how God operates, and what it means for God to be omniscient.

I have tried to explain why I came to a different conclusion but you rejected my explanations.

That is not a rational critique of his reasoning. Just a unjustified assertion that he is wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

I NEVER SAID GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE IS WHAT MAKES ME CHOOSE IT.

When you say you have to choose the red shirt because God knows you will choose the red shirt you are saying that God's foreknowledge is making you choose the red shirt, as I just explained in my previous post.

 

[ppp]

You KEEP SAYING that you cannot choose the blue shirt if God knows that you will choose the red shirt so you are saying that God's foreknowledge is forcing you to wear the red shirt.
Yet you are claiming that God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice. #514

God informs (not orders) me: You will choose the red shirt.
Can I choose the blue shirt? This is a yes/no question.

 

[Trailblazer]

..so what makes you choose it then?

Free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

God informs (not orders) me: You will choose the red shirt.

God never informs anyone of what color shirt they will wear so your question is moot.

 

[Trailblazer]

God choosing the specific universe where that is his "choice".

There is no such universe where God makes our choices for us. There is only a universe where humans have free will to choose.

 

[ppp]

God never informs anyone of what color shirt they will wear so your question is moot.

Since you just responded based on that exact hypothetical in post #666, you are just making a gratuitous objection to avoid answering the question. No surprise there.

 

[ppp]

There is no such universe where God makes our choices for us. There is only a universe where humans have free will to choose.

You cannot escape logic, @Trailblazer, You are just closing your eyes and hoping it goes away. Good luck with that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since you just responded based on that exact hypothetical in post #666, you are just making a gratuitous objection to avoid answering the question. No surprise there.

I don't waste my time on hypotheticals because I already know what God actually does and does not do. God NEVER informs anyone what color shirt they will wear.

 

[Trailblazer]

You cannot escape logic, @Trailblazer, You are just closing your eyes and hoping it goes away. Good luck with that.

That is what you are doing so that is projection.

You cannot escape reality.
Everyone except 'some' atheists knows that humans have free will to choose, which means God does not chose for us. Logical atheists believe we have free will.

The entire justice system is based on free will.
You are the one who is illogical.

“Everyone wants to hold criminals responsible for their actions. This “responsibility” has its foundation in the belief that we all have the free will to choose right from wrong. What if free will is just an illusion, how would that impact the criminal justice system? Free will creates the moral structure that provides the foundation for our criminal justice system. Without it, most punishments in place today must be eliminated completely. Its no secret that I’m a firm believer in free will, but I’m also a firm believer in arguing against it when it helps my clients. That’s what we lawyers do (call me a hypocrite if you like, I can take it). Now, let’s delve into the issues and practical effects of eliminating free will.

We only punish those who are morally responsible for their action. If a driver accidentally runs over a pedestrian–there will be no criminal charges in the death of the pedestrian. This is what we call an “accident”. However, if a husband runs over his wife after an argument, that same pedestrian death now constitutes murder. It was the driver’s “intent” that made one pedestrian death a crime, and the other not. But, what if we examine the husband’s brain, and an MRI discovers a frontal lobe defect that could explain his deviant behavior? Is he still guilty of murder? If such a defect “caused” the husband’s actions, our criminal justice system has laws in place that would label the husband “Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity”......

As you can see from the appellate opinion above, our criminal laws are founded on the notion that if a person is not acting by his free will, the law cannot hold him “accountable for his choices”. There are plenty of other examples of Florida criminal laws that would benefit my clients, should everyone agree that free will is an illusion. For example, confessions cannot not be entered into evidence unless they are made of the defendant’s “own free will”. The term “free will” is contained right there in the definition of numerous legal concepts. Other criminal law concepts would lose their meaning as well, like “premeditation”. Is it realistic to speak of premeditation if freewill doesn’t exist? Is a robot on an assembly line in China premeditating the building of an iPhone? The mere fact that a robot takes several distinct steps to complete a task doesn’t render its actions ‘premeditated’. Such concepts should be purged from our criminal justice system if we’re all just biological robots.

Should science convince the world that free will is an illusion–we must move past notions of “punishment” and “sentencing”. This is not just intellectual musings; concepts of free will impact the criminal courts on a daily basis....... The bottom line here is best expressed by Professor Shaun Nichols in his lectures entitled Free Will and Determinism: “if science convinces us that free will is an illusion, we seem to face a moral conclusion that is difficult to accept: that all criminals should be excused for their crimes.”

Free WIll, Determinism, and the Criminal Justice System

 

[ppp]

I don't waste my time on hypotheticals

And yet you just responded on that basis in post 666. As I said, you are evading the question because it highlights your hypocrisy. It is a convenient dodge, but not particularly honorable or forthright.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You cannot escape reality.
Everyone except 'some' atheists knows that humans have free will to choose, which means God does not chose for us. Logical atheists believe we have free will.

The entire justice system is based on free will.
You are the one who is illogical.

Of course you are right. It is all in their heads.
They can see that they have free-will, unless a God who they can't see and can't hear "informs them" what they "must" do

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I hope you and your husband are well.
Sorry I took so long to reply…

God knows everything that ever happened, everything that is happening now, and everything that will ever happen in the future.

All of that is written on the Tablet of Fate, as if it has already happened, but it has not happened yet in this material world until it actually takes place.

I do not believe that God tried to get Cain to control himself.
The Old Testament God is anthropomorphic stories about God, they are not anything the real God did. They are stories that contain spiritual lessons.

Then what’s the spiritual lesson here? If the account is taken as allegorical, then the lesson should be easy to discern. Like Aesops fables.

If I understand it as allegorical, I see no lesson.

 

[Sheldon]

what is rational to me is not rational to you.

Rational means in accordance with the principles of logic, you can't have your own logic,

I'm well aware of that. You confuse logic with objective evidence.

No I confused nothing, your claim is emboldened above in red, as is my response, which makes no mention of objective evidence. So if you knew this why imply that something was rational to you, (above in red) but not to someone else? Something either is or is not in accordance with logic, you can't have your own.

 

[Sheldon]

It is deceitful to claim that "we have no choice",

I have never claimed this, quite the opposite. I have merely pointed out the rational consequence of your claim.

It is deceitful to claim that "we have no choice", because G-d knowing what we choose means we will choose it.

So you admit we are bound to a single choice by what your deity knows, you've just stated it right there? Now quick, go back and claim the opposite again, and around we go again.

The only reason we can't choose other than what G-d knows is because as far as G-d is concerned, we have already chosen it, so He can't be wrong.

So again then, you state as plain as it's possible to, that we have no other choices.

While we perceive the future as "hasn't happened yet", He does not.

So again you imply we have no choice, and the future is set for us.

I don't care whether you consider it a rational belief or not.

Obviously, that was why I pointed out your belief was irrational, especially since you keep falsely accusing others of using logical fallacies, as you did again above with KWED's post, then failed again to explain what fallacy he had used. Now that is dishonest, and you have claimed your beliefs are rational, now when confronted with an argument that calls you on that assertion, you say you don't care.

 

[Sheldon]

You've got a blind spot. First you tell us that G-d knows that somebody will choose to commit murder ..

I literally never claimed this, nor do I believe it. This is your belief, and we are discussing the logical consequences of it.

and then you ask a question that is designed to imply that the person cannot choose anything.

No I asked a question that highlights the contradiction of your belief, that a deity knows what we will choose before we choose it, and used a hypothetical of murder, since murders happen all the time. A question you have failed to answer now three times, and it is pretty obvious why.

If your deity knows someone will commit a murder, can they choose not to commit that murder and your deity be wrong?

You claimed your deity knows exactly what we will do, and you claimed we cannot choose differently to what your deity knows we will do, so please explain why you can't answer that question, unless it is because it exposes the contradiction in your claim?

How on earth can G-d know what you will choose if you are not capable of choosing?

By our choices being an illusion, as your belief implies, and as several people have explained to you.

As I say, how can G-d know what we will want to choose, unless we are ABLE to choose?

Again by our choices being an illusion, and again this is the logical implication of your claim and belief that a deity knows exactly what we will do before we do it.

 

[Sheldon]

No, we are not.

If I were to say that I know what you are going to do tomorrow, does that mean that you no longer have free-will to choose?

Yes if he could not make a choice other than the one a deity knows he will make, as you have repeatedly claimed is the case.