I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[muhammad_isa]

..how can we have a choice not to murder if your deity knows we will murder,

You're asking the wrong question..
If G-d knows what we will choose, it is that choice that determines the future .. and not G-d's knowledge.
You imply that it is G-d's knowledge when you ask the question "how can we have a choice not to murder", which is false.

It is the choice that determines what G-d knows. That means that we do indeed have a choice, and your implication is false & misleading.

 

[Sheldon]

It might be an illusion to you..

Finally you admit free will would be negated in your hypothetical, it's an epiphany.

If you ended up in jail because you choose to murder somebody, it doesn't really matter. You'd have plenty of time to ponder over it.

It's your belief not mine, I ma dealing with the hypothetical you imagine is real, I am responsible for my actions, since I don't believe any deity exists.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Allah is determining the outcome of events..

That is a false belief, as would be obvious to anybody who realises that Muslims believe in free-will.

G-d is not a person, and is infinite in nature. Divine decree is a complex issue, and is not as you claim.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..our reality is a linear time frame in a physical universe..

Fine .. so why bother arguing with me?
You don't believe that it is possible for an agent to exist in another time-frame who perceives "now" different to us.

I do, so what is rational to me is not rational to you. Nothing to do with free-will .. it is to do with your perceived idea of reality / time.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I am responsible for my actions, since I don't believe any deity exists.

We are all responsible for our actions .. full-stop.
The future is determined by our choices in both cases .. unless somebody believes that G-d makes everything happen and we are mindless puppets.
I most certainly do not believe that.

 

[Sheldon]

As KWED just pointed out and you ignored with the same old tap dancing nonsense, how can we have a choice not to murder if your deity knows we will murder, and we cannot choose what your deity does not know we will do?

No answer to this then? Quelle surprise.

No it isn't, and you use this like rhetoric, yet every time you're challenged to explain which fallacy, you don't respond.

So despite accusing KWED of using a logical fallacy you can't tell us which fallacy? So your claim was empty rhetoric then, thought so.

You're asking the wrong question..

Only because you have no answer that doesn't violate the law of non-contradiction. Thus it is precisely the right question.

If G-d knows what we will choose, it is that choice that determines the future .. and not G-d's knowledge.
You imply that it is G-d's knowledge when you ask the question "how can we have a choice not to murder", which is false.

All you have done is go back to irrational denial, by reversing your position, and of course without answering the question, and it's obvious why. If your deity knows someone will commit a murder, can they not commit that murder? It's a pretty simple question, that you have no rational response to, thus it exposes your claim as irrational, since it has a logical contradiction. Flat denials won't make your argument any more rational.

It is the choice that determines what G-d knows.

So now you're implying that your deity doesn't know what we will choose, until we make the choice. You're contradicting yourself over and over again, to avoid the logical consequences of your belief.

 

[Sheldon]

Fine .. so why bother arguing with me?

In a debate forum you mean?

You don't believe that it is possible for an agent to exist in another time-frame who perceives "now" different to us.

I don't know if it is possible, a difference it seems that is wasted on you, and not for the first time. What objective evidence can you demonstrate that such a deity exists in such a time frame? Only last time you had nada.

I do, so what is rational to me is not rational to you.

Rational means in accordance with the principles of logic, you can't have your own logic, it is a method of reasoning that adheres to strict principles of validation, just because you believe it to be true does not make it rational, and since you have contradicted yourself over and over with this argument, it clearly is not rational. The law of non contradiction, remember?

Nothing to do with free-will .. it is to do with your perceived idea of reality / time.

Our existence in a physical temporal universe is an objective fact, but nice try to pretend my acceptance of that reality is bias, whereas your unevidenced beliefs and assumptions are not.

 

[Sheldon]

We are all responsible for our actions .. full-stop.

That would not be the case in your hypothetical, where a deity existed that knew exactly which choices we would make, before we made them.

The future is determined by our choices in both cases ..

No, no matter how often you make this assertions it is logically inconsistent. If it were not you could easily answer simple questions, but you can't you just go back and forth between two contradictory claims and I will demonstrate this again:

If your deity knows someone will commit a murder, can they choose not to commit that murder and your deity be wrong?

unless somebody believes that G-d makes everything happen and we are mindless puppets.

That is the obvious and rational consequence, of a deity knowing exactly what we will do, before we do it.

I most certainly do not believe that.

Yes I know, and thus your belief is irrational, since it involves two contradictory beliefs or claims.

 

[John53]

We are all responsible for our actions .. full-stop.
The future is determined by our choices in both cases .. unless somebody believes that G-d makes everything happen and we are mindless puppets.
I most certainly do not believe that.

Puppets seems to be a good analogy for what you describe. We're following a known script with a known conclusions like puppets in a stage show. Reminds me of a song I know....

What's the use of striving?
Life's road in front unravels
We get to do the driving
Don't choose the direction we travel

 

[muhammad_isa]

Rational means in accordance with the principles of logic, you can't have your own logic..

I'm well aware of that. You confuse logic with objective evidence.
It is not illogical to believe that the future is determined by our choices, whether G-d exists that is capable of knowing what we will choose or not.

It is deceitful to claim that "we have no choice", because G-d knowing what we choose means we will choose it.
The only reason we can't choose other than what G-d knows is because as far as G-d is concerned, we have already chosen it, so He can't be wrong.
It is NOT that He can't be wrong because G-d has preordained it, as you suggest.

Our existence in a physical temporal universe is an objective fact..

..and nobody is claiming otherwise.
..but G-d is NOT a physical person living in this universe.
That is how come He knows what we will choose. While we perceive the future as "hasn't happened yet", He does not.

I don't care whether you consider it a rational belief or not. Time belongs to G-d, and He is its author.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If your deity knows someone will commit a murder, can they choose not to commit that murder and your deity be wrong?

You've got a blind spot. First you tell us that G-d knows that somebody will choose to commit murder .. and then you ask a question that is designed to imply that the person cannot choose anything.
How on earth can G-d know what you will choose if you are not capable of choosing?

That is the obvious and rational consequence, of a deity knowing exactly what we will do, before we do it.

As I say, how can G-d know what we will want to choose, unless we are ABLE to choose?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Puppets seems to be a good analogy for what you describe. We're following a known script with a known conclusions like puppets in a stage show.

No, we are not.

If I were to say that I know what you are going to do tomorrow, does that mean that you no longer have free-will to choose?

 

[John53]

No, we are not.

If I were to say that I know what you are going to do tomorrow, does that mean that you no longer have free-will to choose?

That is a poor analogy. It would only apply if humans and God are equal.

 

[Tiberius]

Don't worry .. you'll get it one day.

The age old cry of the one who has no support for their claims.

 

[Tiberius]

..and that is the crux of the matter .. your perception of time.
You see time as being an absolute phenomena that it is impossible to violate .. even by G-d who created the space-time continuum [ universe ]

I see the universe as being a creation of G-d, and G-d can see everything that happens inside this "bubble" including the dimensions of time.

Irrelevant.

We do not need to know everything in order to be sure that the things that remain unknown to us do not violate the things we DO know.

 

[Tiberius]

I said:
Free will and God's omniscience are not mutually exclusive because what God knows does not prevent humans from choosing freely. As such, free will and omniscience can coexist.

How do you think I can present evidence of that?
It is something you need to come to understand by the process of logical reasoning.

And yet logical reasoning has led me to the exact opposite conclusion.

Now, logic is describable in much the same way that math is, so if I have made a mistake in my logic, then you should be able to show me, and you should also be able to prove your logic is correct in the same sense that one can prove some mathematical idea is correct.

And yet you can not do so.

 

[Tiberius]

God does not need to "figure out" anything out because God already knows everything that will ever happen.

God does not know 'on Monday' what color shirt you will choose to wear on Friday.
God has always known from eternity what color shirt you will choose to wear.

If you were going to choose to wear a red shirt on Friday, God would have always known you were going to choose to wear a red shirt on Friday.

If you were going to choose to wear a blue shirt on Friday, God would have always known you were going to choose to wear a blue shirt on Friday.

If you were going to choose to wear a purple shirt on Friday, God would have always known you were going to choose to wear a purple shirt on Friday.

If you were going to choose to wear a green shirt on Friday, God would have always known you were going to choose to wear a green shirt on Friday.

If you were going to choose to wear an orange shirt on Friday, God would have always known you were going to choose to wear an orange shirt on Friday.

However, God's knowledge does not cause you to choose the color shirt you choose.
You choose to wear the color shirt you want to wear with your free will.

I thought you said that you were going to drop that argument, since I have told you countless times I NEVER SAID THAT.

I don't know where you ever got that idea.

God does not 'take action' in this world, God wills things to happen they happen according to God's will.
However, God does not will things that He does not choose to will. God leaves those things for us to choose.

Lol, sure, more assertions, still no support.

 

[Tiberius]

Simply put, you will choose what God knows you will choose because God knows what you will choose, whatever that is, so whatever you chose on Friday, God WOULD HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN that you were going to choose that.

The only reason you will choose (what God had always known you would choose) is because you chose it, NOT because God knew you would choose it.

Do I have to say it again?

I NEVER SAID GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE IS WHAT MAKES ME CHOOSE IT.

I also thought you said you'd drop that strawman argument. Or were you lying when you said that?

 

[Tiberius]

There was only one possible outcome, but that outcome was determined by the CHOICE you made.

If there was only one possible outcome, there was no choice.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If there was only one possible outcome, there was no choice.

That is a false.

You have just said "I NEVER SAID GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE IS WHAT MAKES ME CHOOSE IT."

..so what makes you choose it then?