I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Tiberius]

That's right, there were two possible outcomes (blue and red), but there was only one actual outcome (blue or red).

No, if God always knew that I would wear the BLUE shirt, then the red shirt was never one of the possible outcomes.

Thus, there was only one possible outcome, and with only one possible outcome, there was no choice.

 

[Tiberius]

What you are saying here, is that if you choose 'A' it is not a choice, and if you choose 'B' it is also not a choice .. because G-d knew that you would choose either A or B.

I could just as easily say "If what I choose MUST BE identical with what the future is going to be, then it's not really a choice..

It's all word play .. and a feeling that the future can't be known due to "it hasn't happened yet" .. perception .. not logic.

Yes, but only if the future is set in stone.

If the future is not set in stone, then you can choose whatever you want, and it will be a free choice - but since it's not set in stone, knowledge of events can not be posessed until those events have taken place.

 

[Tiberius]

We don't know what the future is going to be .. we only know what has happened in the past.
From the perspective of a person in the universe, the future "has not happened yet".

G-d is not a part of this universe. G-d is not subject to time, as in our perception of it. The future is not hidden from G-d.
It is all about the nature of time .. that our perception that "it hasn't happened yet" is universal and absolute. You take it for granted that your perception of 'time' is a universal reality that cannot be violated.

Believers accept that time belongs to G-d .. can be known by the Master of the universe .. a bit like the well-known Dr. Who

Nice assertions.

How about you bring some actual evidence to the table as well?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Repeating the same assertions will not convince me.

You know what will convince me?

EVIDENCE.

Don't worry .. you'll get it one day.

 

[Tiberius]

..but that is what you imply.
You are implying that we lose our free-will if G-d knows what we will choose.
That is identical to saying that G-d is somehow forcing us to choose what He knows.

..and it is not "logic 101" as you claim. It is a logical fallacy.

No.

If I watch Jurassic Park, I know the lawyer is going to run out of the car and hide in the toilet.

But my knowledge of his actions is NOT what makes him actually do it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..but since it's not set in stone, knowledge of events can not be posessed until those events have taken place.

..and that is the crux of the matter .. your perception of time.
You see time as being an absolute phenomena that it is impossible to violate .. even by G-d who created the space-time continuum [ universe ]

I see the universe as being a creation of G-d, and G-d can see everything that happens inside this "bubble" including the dimensions of time.

 

[Trailblazer]

I had just been talking to my 92 year old mother and it's a very frustrating ordeal and incredibly depressing...

I know what you mean. My mother lived to be 93, but thankfully she was never in any cognitive decline. But still it was depressing because of her physical problems and my inability to get her to move to the city where I lived then so she could be nearby and I could help her more.

God knows everything I have done and everything I will do correct? In fact God knows everything I will do from before i was born?

Yes, that is correct.

If that is correct is there anything I can do to change that course?

You will do what God knows you will do (simply because God knows what you will do) but there is NO WAY for you to know what you will do since you cannot see into the future.

The course of your life can change but whatever you choose will be what God knew you would choose.
Let me know if that makes sense before I say any more to muddy the waters.

 

[Trailblazer]

The existence of an agent who knows the future does not change anything for us. The situation is what it is. We have to choose the path we tread.

That about says it all. It is simple, even though it is difficult for many people to understand.

 

[Trailblazer]

We choose the path to a predetermined conclusion making life pointless. In fact making every choice pointless because the outcome is known.

Our path is known but our path is not predetermined, since God's foreknowledge does not determine what we will do.
What God knows does not determine the outcome, what we choose is what determines the outcome.

 

[Trailblazer]

Repeating the same assertions will not convince me.

You know what will convince me?

EVIDENCE.

I said:
Free will and God's omniscience are not mutually exclusive because what God knows does not prevent humans from choosing freely. As such, free will and omniscience can coexist.

How do you think I can present evidence of that?
It is something you need to come to understand by the process of logical reasoning.

 

[Trailblazer]

Chalk that up to a miscommunication.

I meant "determines" in the sense of "figures out."
As in, "The weatherman looked at the rain gauge to determine how much rain had fallen the previous night."

In this sentence, the weatherman is obviously not deciding, "Okay, this is how much rain there will be," he is looking at something to find out about it.

I should have written that first line as:

If God figures out/realises on Monday that I will wear the red shirt for my lunch meeting on Friday, is there any way for me to choose to wear a different shirt AFTER that point? Yes or no.​

God does not need to "figure out" anything out because God already knows everything that will ever happen.

God does not know 'on Monday' what color shirt you will choose to wear on Friday.
God has always known from eternity what color shirt you will choose to wear.

If you were going to choose to wear a red shirt on Friday, God would have always known you were going to choose to wear a red shirt on Friday.

If you were going to choose to wear a blue shirt on Friday, God would have always known you were going to choose to wear a blue shirt on Friday.

If you were going to choose to wear a purple shirt on Friday, God would have always known you were going to choose to wear a purple shirt on Friday.

If you were going to choose to wear a green shirt on Friday, God would have always known you were going to choose to wear a green shirt on Friday.

If you were going to choose to wear an orange shirt on Friday, God would have always known you were going to choose to wear an orange shirt on Friday.

However, God's knowledge does not cause you to choose the color shirt you choose.
You choose to wear the color shirt you want to wear with your free will.

If that is true, then God can take no action, since to perform an action requires time.

I don't know where you ever got that idea.

God does not 'take action' in this world, God wills things to happen they happen according to God's will.
However, God does not will things that He does not choose to will. God leaves those things for us to choose.

 

[John53]

We do not. That is only your perception due to the nature of time.
The future is determined by our choices, and not by an agent's knowledge of the future.

The only reason that I can see that you should think otherwise, is because you see time as an absolute phenomena which cannot known in advance. You then suggest that a known future is determined by that knowledge rather than ourselves.

It is a flawed conclusion. It makes no sense to suggest that G-d knows what we will choose because He has predetermined what we will choose. It is simply wrong.

As far as G-d is concerned, "the pen is lifted, and the ink is dry".
In other words, while we perceive that "it hasn't happened yet", G-d perceives that we have already made our choices.
You might not believe that or think it is impossible .. but there we are.

Fair enough, you believe that and I'll go on believing it's all a man made concept that makes zero sense when examined in any detail.

 

[Trailblazer]

That doesn't solve anything.

If God has always known what my choice will be, then I could not have decided anything different on Friday, could I? I was always bound to choose what God had always known I would choose.

Simply put, you will choose what God knows you will choose because God knows what you will choose, whatever that is, so whatever you chose on Friday, God WOULD HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN that you were going to choose that.

The only reason you will choose (what God had always known you would choose) is because you chose it, NOT because God knew you would choose it.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, if God always knew that I would wear the BLUE shirt, then the red shirt was never one of the possible outcomes.

Thus, there was only one possible outcome, and with only one possible outcome, there was no choice.

There was only one possible outcome, but that outcome was determined by the CHOICE you made.

 

[John53]

I know what you mean. My mother lived to be 93, but thankfully she was never in any cognitive decline. But still it was depressing because of her physical problems and my inability to get her to move to the city where I lived then so she could be nearby and I could help her more.

My situation sounds very similar. My sister is supposed to be her carer but my sister is in worse health than my mother. They both need to be somewhere with full time care.

Yes, that is correct.

You will do what God knows you will do (simply because God knows what you will do) but there is NO WAY for you to know what you will do since you cannot see into the future.

The course of your life can change but whatever you choose will be what God knew you would choose.
Let me know if that makes sense before I say any more to muddy the waters.

I wasn't asking if I could know what I will do. I'm asking if there's a way I can change the course of my life that is already known by God. A simple yes or no would clear up any confusion.

I suspect the answer is no which means life is pointless and free will is nothing more than an excuse to fill in the flaws of the man made concept of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

My situation sounds very similar. My sister is supposed to be her carer but my sister is in worse health than my mother. They both need to be somewhere with full time care.

That sounds like a very difficult situation.

My older brother used to live in the same town as my mother but then his wife died and he got remarried and moved to another state, leaving my mother alone. My mother lived in her rented condo till the very end. My husband and I tried to get her to move to where we live which is about three hours away, and she finally agreed to move, but she passed away before she could move. That was in the fall of 2007. It was very sad.

I wasn't asking if I could know what I will do. I'm asking if there's a way I can change the course of my life that is already known by God. A simple yes or no would clear up any confusion.

You cannot do anything other than what God knows you will do, because God knows what you will do, so I guess that is a no.

I suspect the answer is no which means life is pointless and free will is nothing more than an excuse to fill in the flaws of the man made concept of God.

The answer is no, but that does not mean free will is pointless, because nothing would happen if you did not choose it and act upon your choices.

God does not determine what you will do, God simply knows what you will do. God does not choose what you will do, you choose what you will do. God knows what you will choose because God is all-knowing.

 

[Triumph]

What does that bizaare outburst have to do with your previous claim?

You claimed that:

1. Our DNA was designed before we started splitting cells to become a Homo Sapiens.
2 It was programed to exist
3. and the programer is called God.

What objective evidence can you demonstrate for those 3 separate claims?

NB Denying or attacking scientific facts like species evolution, doesn't remotely demonstrate any objective evidence for those claims. It is not a choice between your unevidenced claims, and species evolution.

I have shown that prophecy is true in the Bible. If the prophecy is true and it is, then God exists.

 

[John53]

You cannot do anything other than what God knows you will do, because God knows what you will do, so I guess that is a no.

The answer is no, but that does not mean free will is pointless, because nothing would happen if you did not choose it and act upon your choices.

God does not determine what you will do, God simply knows what you will do. God does not choose what you will do, you choose what you will do. God knows what you will choose because God is all-knowing.

I understand what you mean but it's beyond my understand why anyone would believe it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I understand what you mean but it's beyond my understand why anyone would believe it.

That's okay. If you do not believe that God exists I can see why it would be beyond your understanding why anyone would believe how God operates.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Fair enough, you believe that and I'll go on believing it's all a man made concept that makes zero sense when examined in any detail.

I can understand why you don't believe such a G-d exists, but it does make sense.

..just like Einstein's theory of relativity makes sense.
Einstein said that "now" is only a perception that we hold, because time is relative to the frame of reference we hold.

Do you understand what "frame of reference" means in that context? Einstein showed how an event in time is perceived, is dependent upon the physical universe, and that time is not a fixed phenomena as it appears to be.

This is not proof that any agent exists "outside of time", but it certainly suggests that our perception of events in time is only that .. a perception.