I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Trailblazer]

But that is not what those Scriptures tell us. And others, including 2 Corinthians 4:4….”the god of this world”, who is this? With the power to ‘blind minds’?

What do you think the Scriptures tell us? What do you think is the god of this world that blinds minds?

2 Corinthians 4
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Those verses can have more than one meaning but I think that the gods of this world could mean the 'things in this world' that people worship other than God, the things of this world they are so attached to.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

If we love this life so much that we live only for the things of this world then we lose eternal life, which is nearness to God, because all we think about are the things of this world (eat, drink, and be merry) and we lose sight of God.

That does not literally mean we should hate this life and not enjoy what there is in this life to enjoy, it only means that we should not be so attached to life in this world that we lose sight of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

No the argument there is that if a God knows the outcome of your choices then it isn't free will.
I don't think we have much free will anyways. We have mundane choices. That is a whole debate among itself.

What God knows has no bearing upon our ability to choose. God's all-encompassing knowledge is a perfection of God, one of God's attributes. God's foreknowledge does not cause the actions of men.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

We have free will but free will is constrained by many factors, so we cannot choose anything we might want to choose. We have to have the ability and the opportunity. For example, I cannot choose to be a physician because I do not have the ability to complete med school. I cannot go on a trip to Europe tomorrow because of circumstances of my life that preclude that.

Free will is constrained but we can make moral choices. I can choose to be nice to people or be mean. I can choose to only think of myself or rather think of other people. I can also make mundane choices such as whether I will go for a walk or post on this forum and I can choose what color of shirt I want to wear!

 

[John53]

What God knows has no bearing upon our ability to choose. God's all-encompassing knowledge is a perfection of God, one of God's attributes. God's foreknowledge does not cause the actions of men.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

We have free will but free will is constrained by many factors, so we cannot choose anything we might want to choose. We have to have the ability and the opportunity. For example, I cannot choose to be a physician because I do not have the ability to complete med school. I cannot go on a trip to Europe tomorrow because of circumstances of my life that preclude that.

Free will is constrained but we can make moral choices. I can choose to be nice to people or be mean. I can choose to only think of myself or rather think of other people. I can also make mundane choices such as whether I will go for a walk or post on this forum and I can choose what color of shirt I want to wear!

Do you ever wonder about this stuff? Free will has limits... ever think free will might just been an excuse for an absent god?

 

[Trailblazer]

Dear Trailblazer, hope you’re well. Please accept this reasoning from me in the friendly spirit it’s given … I don’t mean it in any other way…

No worries, I know you and I know the friendly spirit in which you say whatever you say.

I’m glad you mentioned Abel… I wasn’t even thinking about using this line of evidence to support them being genuine people… so I’m grateful to you: Abel is mentioned in Hebrews 11 among those who exercised faith. The Apostle Paul spoke of him along with King David & others…. Notice Hebrews 11:32-34:
“And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies.” These were people who serve as examples for us & did these things, not allegorical figures.

I am not saying these were not real people, but when the Bible says they said and did certain things, where do you think that information comes from? How would anyone know what they said or did in order to be able to write it down? Of course, this is a whole different discussion.

To be honest, I do not know the Bible well at all since I have only read verses here and there and mostly from the New Testament, so I have to plead ignorance. I have a personal opinion based upon what my religion says about certain parts of the Bible, that is all.

Examples of fictitious people can’t strengthen our faith, but knowing that real people went through these experiences with God’s help…. that can, immensely.

Now it seems you’re speaking of him as a real person, that’s good!

Like I said, I don't know the Bible very well so I don't know who were real people and who were not real people but I cannot see how that matters that much because the lesson is still the same.

But if that’s the lesson, then the account is not stressing the seriousness of the act: really, isn’t committing murder for any reason, wrong?
If the account is “just” a fiction, then why show that God was trying to change Cain’s mind? If things are as you state, that God knows the choices people will make…. then why put that in there? That only confuses the matter.
IMO, from reading the account and reasoning on it, the Bible is relating an actual event, in which Jehovah God was trying to reach a person’s heart, and get them to change.

Even if God was trying to change Cain's mind, that does not mean God did not know what Cain was ultimately going to choose to do. What God knows people will choose to do has no bearing upon what people will choose to do. God's perfect foreknowledge is an attribute of God.

It’s always beneficial to meditate on what the Bible is telling us, to use our reasoning skills (critical thinking methods) on its context.

I fully agree.

Have a good day, my cousin.

You too, my cousin.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you ever wonder about this stuff? Free will has limits... ever think free will might just been an excuse for an absent god?

Free will certainly does have limits.

Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free our choices are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity. However, we can make choices because otherwise we would just be pre-programmed robots.

For example, people choose to get married, go to college, or have children, since nobody chooses for them. What people end up choosing is determined by their childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances, but it is still a choice.

No, I do not think free will is an excuse for an absent God as without free will (the ability to make choices) nobody could make choices and nobody could ever be held accountable for their moral choices.

Humans having free will is in no way related to what God does or what God does not do.
God is not responsible for doing things in this world that humans have been enjoined to do, things that humans are responsible for doing.

I think that maybe you have an idea of what God is that is not accurate so I am going to post the Baha'i view of God which is not exactly the same as the Christian view although there are some similarities.

God in the Baháʼí Faith

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Baháʼí view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation. The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator.[4] God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries, known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.[5]

The Baháʼí teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable. Thus, all of humanity's conceptions of God which have been derived throughout history are mere manifestations of the human mind and not at all reflective of the nature of God's essence. While God's essence is inaccessible, a subordinate form of knowledge is available by way of mediation by divine messengers, known as Manifestations of God.

Personal God

While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_the_Bahai Faith

 

[Trailblazer]

You can't say that they are evidence God exists, all you can say is YOU BELIEVE they are evidence that God exists.

That's true, but so what? Nobody with religious beliefs can say anything other than "I believe."

 

[John53]

Free will certainly does have limits.

You can't see the obvious problem with that?

This is why I'm an atheist.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't care that you said it in the past.

You still said it.

If you said it in the past and now claim that you never said it at all because you have changed your mind on the issue, that is a lie,

No, that is NOT a lie because I admitted that I said it.

I said:
I never denied that I said that BEFORE, but so what? That was yesterday..
I do not CARE what I said at 9:30 PM yesterday. That is in the past.

You act as if I said something really awful. I did not say anything awful at all, all I did was say what "I believed" your position was regarding free will and God's foreknowledge. Big ****ing deal. Why that bothers you so much is a question you should be asking yourself.

What I said is NOTHING compared to what you have said to me about me for the last year, but I do not care because I do not live in the past.

If you want to cling to the past and hang onto resentments that is your own business but I will not do so.
Every day is a new day and I don't live in the past, I live in the day I am in..

because the fact you changed your mind does not alter the fact that you still said it.

So what? We all say things and then we change our mind about them later and say something different.
It is called life. You can choose to either grow up and get over it or hang onto resentments. It does not matter to me because this is just a forum and I can always find nice people to talk to.

This is the most outrageous example of you shifting your position to avoid taking responsibility for what you say.

No, it is a good example of me taking responsibility for what I said and then moving on.

 

[Tiberius]

That's true, but so what? Nobody with religious beliefs can say anything other than "I believe."

That's right.

But then you get some who claim to KNOW, not just believe.

And they don't realise that if you can't SHOW it, you don't KNOW it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Once again you invoke the "I don't remember what this conversation is about" excuse to get out of a failing situation.

No, once again I HONESTLY SAY I do not understand what you mean.
There was no conversation about this.

You said: So how can you say there was no "before," and then turn around and immediately invoke a "before"?

How am I supposed to know what you mean?

 

[John53]

Geez people, chill out, it's a discussion. People are allowed to have opposing views, actually it's kind of important or there wouldn't be a discussion.

 

[Tiberius]

No, that is NOT a lie because I admitted that I said it.

I said:
I never denied that I said that BEFORE, but so what? That was yesterday..
I do not CARE what I said at 9:30 PM yesterday. That is in the past.

You act as if I said something really awful. I did not say anything awful at all, all I did was say what "I believed" your position was regarding free will and God's foreknowledge. Big ****ing deal. Why that bothers you so much is a question you should be asking yourself.

What I said is NOTHING compared to what you have said to me about me for the last year, but I do not care because I do not live in the past.

If you want to cling to the past and hang onto resentments that is your own business but I will not do so.
Every day is a new day and I don't live in the past, I live in the day I am in..

Absolute garbage.

You REPEATEDLY said that I held the position that God's foreknowledge was the thing that forced me to do what God had foreseen.

I repeatedly told you that I did NOT hold that position.

You still made the claim, even AFTER I told you it was not my position and thus a strawman.

Then you said that you never claimed it was my position.

I don't care if you changed your mind. If you say something, then later on claim you didn't say it, then the "I didn't say it" bit is a lie.

So what? We all say things and then we change our mind about them later and say something different.
It is called life. You can choose to either grow up and get over it or hang onto resentment. It does not matter to me because this is just a forum and I can always find nice people to talk to.

I'm not calling you a liar because you changed your mind. I'm calling you a liar because you repeatedly said I held a position, then you claimed to have never said it.

No, it is a good example of me taking responsibility for what I said and then moving on.

Ha.

Trailbzer: I never denied that I said that BEFORE, but so what? That was yesterday. I do not CARE what I said at 9:30 PM yesterday. That is in the past.

Look at all the responsibility taking there.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can't see the obvious problem with that?

This is why I'm an atheist.

No, I cannot see a problem with "Free will certainly does have limits."
Logically, how would it be possible for human free will to NOT have limits? Humans are limited by their very nature.

You are an atheist because free will has limits? Please explain.

 

[Tiberius]

No, once again I HONESTLY SAY I do not understand what you mean.
There was no conversation about this.

You said: So how can you say there was no "before," and then turn around and immediately invoke a "before"?

How am I supposed to know what you mean?

No conversation? Absolute garbage.

Let me refresh you.

You can choose to either go to the movies, go out to dinner, go camping, or go to a ball game, but you are making a choice with your free will.

God knows whether you will go to the movies, go out to dinner, go camping, or go to a ball game, because God is all-knowing.

Once again, you have it the wrong way around.

God knows BEFORE I make the choice.

If God KNOWS I will go to the movies, then I can't choose to go camping instead, can I?

There is no BEFORE. God had always known everything you will ever do from the beginning of creation but God's foreknowledge has no bearing upon what you will choose to do.

Whatever you choose will be what God has always known you will choose.

If you had chosen to go camping instead of to the movies God would have always known that was going to be your choice.

You say there's no "before," but then say that God knew what I would do from the beginning of creation.

Now, the beginning of creation occurred BEFORE every single choice I ever made, correct?

You say there's no "before," but then say that God knew what I would do from the beginning of creation.

Correct.

Now, the beginning of creation occurred BEFORE every single choice I ever made, correct?

Correct.

So how can you say there was no "before," and then turn around and immediately invoke a "before"?

In short, you said, "There is no BEFORE," and then you said, "God knew what you will do BEFORE you do it."

Now, it is not that hard to click on the little arrows next to a person's name in the quoted passages. This will take you back through the conversation. It took me literally one minute to do. I have also told you about this before, so you have no excuse for not knowing and you have no excuse for not doing it.

Since this is not the first time I have showed you this feature, it does not seem like a lack of understanding on your part now. It looks much more like an attempt at avoiding taking responsibility for what you have said.

Don't do it again. If you can't follow conversations, then you shouldn't participate in them.

 

[John53]

No, I cannot see a problem with "Free will certainly does have limits."
Logically, how would it be possible for human free will to NOT have limits? Humans are limited by their very nature.

I thought it was obvious, if free will has limits it's not free will. At best it's partial or controlled.

You are an atheist because free will has limits? Please explain.

I'm offend that religions come up with such obvious contradicting nonsense and expect me to accept it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Geez people, chill out, it's a discussion. People are allowed to have opposing views, actually it's kind of important or there wouldn't be a discussion.

You call this a discussion?
I wish it could be but it is not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Look at all the responsibility taking there.

And look at the vulture swooping in.
Some people do not have anything better to do that feed off criticisms of me.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

A leopard never changes its stripes.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not calling you a liar because you changed your mind. I'm calling you a liar because you repeatedly said I held a position, then you claimed to have never said it.

No, I never claimed I did not say it. I admitted I said it but that was in the past.
The question is why you can't get over it and move on.

 

[Sheldon]

you feel that the person is forced to choose what they choose, just because it is known ..

Nope, you said unequivocally the future is "set in stone".

It can only be one outcome ..

Quod erat demonstrandum, if there can only be one outcome, we cannot have any choices other than that outcome, axiomatically.

The future is a series of events, and they are determined by your choices.

Well that is what we perceive, but you said the future is set in stone???

The "one course of action" is the one you choose of your own free-will ..

So now you're claiming it's not set in stone??? Except you said it is set in stone???

it's just a case of misleading statements.

Oh good, you see it as well, I thought I was having a stroke.

only God knows why people say what they do.

Exactly what they will do, and they cannot do otherwise, and the future is set in stone???? Seriously take a breath and smell the idiocy...

 

[Trailblazer]

I thought it was obvious, if free will has limits it's not free will. At best it's partial or controlled.

It is not called "totally free will." Of course free will has its limits because humans have limits.
Only God's will has no limits because God has no limits.

I'm offend that religions come up with such obvious contradicting nonsense and expect me to accept it.

I do not expect you to accept it, but I don't think you even know what it is you are not accepting.