I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[John53]

It is not called "totally free will." Of course free will has its limits because humans have limits.
Only God's will has no limits because God has no limits.

It's also not called partial will.

I do not expect you to accept it, but I don't think you even know what it is you are not accepting.

I'm not accepting a series of excuses to explain a non existent super being.

 

[Trailblazer]

No conversation? Absolute garbage.

Let me refresh you.

In short, you said, "There is no BEFORE," and then you said, "God knew what you will do BEFORE you do it."

Now, it is not that hard to click on the little arrows next to a person's name in the quoted passages. This will take you back through the conversation. It took me literally one minute to do. I have also told you about this before, so you have no excuse for not knowing and you have no excuse for not doing it.

Since this is not the first time I have showed you this feature, it does not seem like a lack of understanding on your part now. It looks much more like an attempt at avoiding taking responsibility for what you have said.

Don't do it again. If you can't follow conversations, then you shouldn't participate in them.

There was no need to go back and do all that work just to prove you were right and I was wrong.

I could go back and read EVERY SINGLE THING that was said in that discussion and I STILL would not understand what you meant when you said:

You said: So how can you say there was no "before," and then turn around and immediately invoke a "before"?

Why couldn't you just explain what you meant and save us all this trouble?

Don't do it again. If you can't follow conversations, then you shouldn't participate in them.

Now, it is not that hard to click on the little arrows next to a person's name in the quoted passages. This will take you back through the conversation. It took me literally one minute to do. I have also told you about this before, so you have no excuse for not knowing and you have no excuse for not doing it.

I do not need to have excuses for not doing what YOU expect me to do. I am not answerable to you.
Nobody goes back through older posts to see what was said days ago. Only you do that.
Now see if anyone wants to have a discussion with you. Nobody else would put up with all your personal criticisms.

Happy trails.

 

[Sheldon]

No the argument there is that if a God knows the outcome of your choices then it isn't free will.

A pointless argument.

Nuh uh... Since you find bare denials so compelling.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's also not called partial will.

That is a given, since no human is free to do everything they want to do.
Free will just means that everything is not fated.

free will: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=what+does+free+will+mean

I'm not accepting a series of excuses to explain a non existent super being.

So do you think that God should do everything and humans should do nothing?

 

[Sheldon]

1. The believer is saying that we have free-will.
2. The believer is saying that God knows what we will choose of our own free-will.

It's as simple as that.

You're also saying that a deity knows exactly which choice we will make, before we perceive making it, and that the future is set in stone.

...and that we would still have any choice, but only the one a deity knows we will make, but we're not limited to it, except we cannot choose otherwise, though we are free to choose otherwise, as long as what we choose is only what a deity knows we will choose, but we can choose what we want, but not other than what a deity knows we will choose....

horse do do....

 

[Sheldon]

God knows the choice that you will make of your own free-will.

As long as our free will does not deviate from the one choice a deity knows we will make...

The claim is that a deterministic future precludes free-will.

Exactly we are free to choose precisely the one choice a deity knows we will make, and not any other, since it is predetermined, no wait...

 

[Sheldon]

It depends what you mean by "determinism".

determinism
noun
PHILOSOPHY

1. the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

The future HAS to be determined by something.

Maybe, maybe not, but if it is determined before we perceive making a choice, then it axiomatically cannot be chosen by individual free will.

The past is determined by our choices.

Was.... We live and perceive our notion of free will in a linear temporal universe.

..and I say that the future is as well.

Nuh uh...

 

[Tiberius]

No, I never claimed I did not say it. I admitted I said it but that was in the past.
The question is why you can't get over it and move on.

Yes you did. Post 1034.

 

[John53]

That is a given, since no human is free to do everything they want to do.
Free will just means that everything is not fated.

free will: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=what+does+free+will+mean

So do you think that God should do everything and humans should do nothing?

It's not free will if there's constraints. It's not free will if what we will do is known before we're born. How anyone can say it is blows my mind. Apparently my brain isn't programmed to ignore logic.

I'm not saying any god should do anything. I'm saying people should stop using god as an excuse and accept we're here on our own, there's no paradise waiting. The yes there's free will but wait no there's a limit to the free will and well sometimes there is no free will but it's because of free will except when it isn't BS is just that... BS.

 

[Tiberius]

There was no need to go back and do all that work just to prove you were right and I was wrong.

I could go back and read EVERY SINGLE THING that was said in that discussion and I STILL would not understand what you meant when you said:

You said: So how can you say there was no "before," and then turn around and immediately invoke a "before"?

Why couldn't you just explain what you meant and save us all this trouble?

I DID.

I literally said pretty much the same thing in post 1035.

I do not need to have excuses for not doing what YOU expect me to do. I am not answerable to you.

But when you choose to participate in a public discussion, a certain standard of behaviour is expected. Such as the ability to respond to posts without resorting to, "Huh? What's going on? What are we talking about? I'm confused!"

Nobody goes back through older posts to see what was said days ago. Only you do that.

You got evidence to back up that claim? Or are you just guessing?

Now see if anyone wants to have a discussion with you. Nobody else would put up with all your personal criticisms.

I've been a member here since 2006. What do you think I was doing here before I started talking with you?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The future is a series of events, and they are determined by your choices.

Well that is what we perceive, but you said the future is set in stone???

Yes .. it IS "set in stone" .. set by our choices.
The thing is, that you can't see how they COULD be set by our choices, because you perceive that what is known comes before the choice.
I, however, believe that God can know what we will freely choose in advance of us making the choice.

At this stage, I have explained so many times that I don't really care what you think any more.
I believe it, and you don't.. It makes sense to me, but not to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not free will if there's constraints. It's not free will if what we will do is known before we're born. How anyone can say it is blows my mind. Apparently my brain isn't programmed to ignore logic.

It is called free will but nobody ever said we are free to do everything we want to do. It is the all or nothing fallacy to say that we are either completely free to do everything we want to do or we are not free to do anything we want to do. That is illogical.

What fallacy is all or nothing?

This chapter focuses on one of the common fallacies in Western philosophy called 'all or nothing (AON)'. AON presents a false dilemma by suggesting that there are only two options – either all or nothing – when in fact there are many more options in the middle ground between those two extremes. May 9, 2018
All or Nothing - Bad Arguments - Wiley Online Library

If God knows what you will do before you are born how do you think that affects what you will choose to do after you were born?

I'm not saying any god should do anything. I'm saying people should stop using god as an excuse and accept we're here on our own, there's no paradise waiting.

How are people using God as an excuse? What are they using God as an excuse for?

You are free to believe there is no paradise waiting but I believe there is a paradise waiting and I am free to believe that because I have free will to choose.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

The yes there's free will but wait no there's a limit to the free will and well sometimes there is no free will but it's because of free will except when it isn't BS is just that... BS.

No, it is just logic that humans are free to do some things they want to do but not free to do everything they want to do.

 

[Sheldon]

Only God's will has no limits because God has no limits.

Circular reasoning fallacy.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, it is just logic that humans are free to do some things they want to do but not free to do everything they want to do.

Of course .. some things are beyond our control.

One cannot choose for it not to rain, for example.
..and we have little control over what others choose to do.
The sort of free-will I speak of, is the sort required to drive a car .. to make the decision to steer and brake etc.

It is silly to claim that a person driving a car is only an illusion.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've been a member here since 2006. What do you think I was doing here before I started talking with you?

I don't know what you were doing, but whatever it was I suggest you go back to doing it because I am not going to do this anymore. I do not have to put up with your personal criticisms.

I have free will to choose and I have chosen. God knew what I was going to choose but that had no bearing on my choice. I could have chosen to continue but I chose not to continue. I know I chose of my own free will because I am self-aware.

 

[Sheldon]

it IS "set in stone" .. set by our choices.

Can our choices change "it", or is "it" set in stone?

Set in stone
"used to emphasize that something is fixed and unchangeable."

Choice
noun

1. an act of choosing between two or more possibilities.

These are mutually exclusive claims.

 

[Sheldon]

it IS "set in stone" ..

.. set by our choices.

To be set in stone

1. used to emphasize that something is fixed and unchangeable

Choices
noun

1. an act of choosing between two or more possibilities.

So which is it?

 

[John53]

It is called free will but nobody ever said we are free to do everything we want to do. It is the all or nothing fallacy to say that we are either completely free to do everything we want to do or we are not free to do anything we want to do. That is illogical.

What fallacy is all or nothing?

This chapter focuses on one of the common fallacies in Western philosophy called 'all or nothing (AON)'. AON presents a false dilemma by suggesting that there are only two options – either all or nothing – when in fact there are many more options in the middle ground between those two extremes. May 9, 2018
All or Nothing - Bad Arguments - Wiley Online Library

If God knows what you will do before you are born how do you think that affects what you will choose to do after you were born?

How are people using God as an excuse? What are they using God as an excuse for?

You are free to believe there is no paradise waiting but I believe there is a paradise waiting and I am free to believe that because I have free will to choose.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

No, it is just logic that humans are free to do some things they want to do but not free to do everything they want to do.

Religious Person: God created everything and God loves us.
Atheist: Why does God let evil people harm children?

RP: That's free will.
A: Why can't the child use their free will to stop the abuse?

RP: We don't always get to exercise our free will.
A: So God allows evil to happen?

RP: No God hates evil, it's the fault of humans using their free will.

You honestly can't see the excuses in there? I understand there's probably no other way to account for the contradictions but sheez give me credit for a little intelligence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Religious Person: God created everything and God loves us.
Atheist: Why does God let evil people harm children?

RP: That's free will.
A: Why can't the child use their free will to stop the abuse?

RP: We don't always get to exercise our free will.
A: So God allows evil to happen?

RP: No God hates evil, it's the fault of humans using their free will.

You honestly can't see the excuses in there? I understand there's probably no other way to account for the contradictions but sheez give me credit for a little intelligence.

I see no excuses because there is nothing that needs to be excused, except the behavior of humans who do evil.

I see no contradictions. God allows evil to happen because God gave man free will to choose, so some people choose to do good and some people choose to do evil.

Evil is 100% the fault of humans who choose to do evil because they do not obey the laws of God. It is as simple as that. There would be no child abuse or rape or murder or any other evil if everyone followed the laws of God.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

 

[John53]

I see no excuses because there is nothing that needs to be excused, except the behavior of humans who do evil.

I see no contradictions. God allows evil to happen because God gave man free will to choose, so some people choose to do good and some people choose to do evil.

Evil is 100% the fault of humans who choose to do evil because they do not obey the laws of God. It is as simple as that. There would be no child abuse or rape or murder or any other evil if everyone followed the laws of God.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

You completely missed the point, I guess I would too, getting the point would mean facing the reality that there is no God.