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"I . . . CREATE EVIL" But why?

Skwim

Veteran Member
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) says: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

But why?

Why   did   god   create   evil?


Obviously this isn't a condition that was going to pop up all on it its own, one that would simply materialize as the antithesis of peace, or god wouldn't have found it necessary to specifically create it. A feat so unique he even makes note of it, and insures it's never forgotten by putting in the Bible.

And just so there's no tap dancing with the word "evil," Strong's Lexicon lists the following meanings (transliterated as the Hebrew "ra`"):
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity

b) evil, injury, wrong

c) evil (ethical)
Note that "evil" is the primary meaning of "ra`." And although some Bible versions fudge and use terms such as "disaster" or "calamity" in place of "evil," the most preferred rendering is "evil."

So again I ask:

Why did god create evil?


(And please, let's have none of those specious "So we would have free will" arguments.)
.
 

MissAlice

Well-Known Member
Evil is such a subjective word depending on one's faith and religion. There are many examples of what god may consider evil but what other people's idea of god would not. Not sure if I'm helping much. I've heard some believers see his evil as more of a challenge than the kind of evil you see in exorcist.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) says: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

But why?

Why   did   god   create   evil?


Obviously this isn't a condition that was going to pop up all on it its own, one that would simply materialize as the antithesis of peace, or god wouldn't have found it necessary to specifically create it. A feat so unique he even makes note of it, and insures it's never forgotten by putting in the Bible.

And just so there's no tap dancing with the word "evil," Strong's Lexicon lists the following meanings (transliterated as the Hebrew "ra`"):
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity

b) evil, injury, wrong

c) evil (ethical)
Note that "evil" is the primary meaning of "ra`." And although some Bible versions fudge and use terms such as "disaster" or "calamity" in place of "evil," the most preferred rendering is "evil."

So again I ask:

Why did god create evil?


(And please, let's have none of those specious "So we would have free will" arguments.)
.

I think one or both of two answers could be the case. The more direct answer is that there is no free will without evil-- I know you didn't want to hear that, but I'm sorry, it happens to be the case. God wanted us to exist: reasoning, self-aware beings with free will, who learn and grow and evolve. Without the chance to make wrong choices, there is no learning, and without experiencing the sorrowful effects of choosing evil, there is no true enrichment with wisdom, which usually is gained through suffering-- either directly, or vicariously in empathy. Evil is, unfortunately, necessary, if only to comprehend why it should not be done. And true evil, requiring malicious intent, is only the result of human choices: no other creatures or situations create evil. I think that if God did not value our capacity for free will, and to learn from our bad choices, we would not exist. God would have been satisfied merely with the angels, which have no free will, and no real capacity to be enriched with wisdom, merely to bear knowledge.

The more indirect answer is that in the passage in Isaiah, ra may not mean evil. It usually does, but the verse in Isaiah is composed in poetic parallels. Yotzer ohr uvoreh choshech (I form light and create darkness) oseh shalom uvoreh et ha-ra (I make peace and create evil): light and darkness are clearly a poetic parallel, and are used as such all over Biblical literature. But peace and evil do not occur anywhere else in Biblical literature as a pairing, and there is no clear reason for them to parallel each other. Unless we read shalom not as "peace" but as "completion," (which the word can absolutely mean, provided the letters are pointed differently), which was, classically, a euphemism for order, and ra as "chaos," a usage not uncommon to the classical and medieval Jewish philosophers writing either in refutation of or under the influence of the Greek philosophers. In which case the proper translation of oseh shalom uvoreh et ha-ra is "I make order and I create chaos," which is a perfect parallel. If that is what Isaiah meant in that verse, then it seems to me that the verse is a reminder that much of what we often mislabel as evil is not evil at all-- diseases, natural disasters, accidents, and other misfortunes we suffer-- but are merely part of the necessary structure of the universe. Even in modern parlance, we understand that chaos-- the apparently disordered patterning of probabilities and entropic thermodynamic degradation-- is part of how the universe functions. Yet as a force of nature, it is impersonal, incapable of being evil because it is incapable of malice.

And I think it serves us well to note that God creates chaos directly. But evil comes about secondhand, in the creation of us.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) says: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

But why?

Why   did   god   create   evil?

And just so there's no tap dancing with the word "evil," Strong's Lexicon lists the following meanings (transliterated as the Hebrew "ra`"):
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity

b) evil, injury, wrong

c) evil (ethical)

evil does not have to be morally wrong.

If a dog attacks someone, the dog is being evil because its causing injury to someone.... but it doesnt make the dog immoral.

God has brought evil to his enemies from time to time. The distress caused by war is an evil. But sometimes war is Just and sometimes we need to cause evil in order to restore peace.

We just need to understand the evil is not always morally wrong...sometimes it is very necessary.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
God gave us our imperfections and environment. Which means he gave us cancer.

so he blew up Chernobyl and sent the fallout to the residents giving them deformed children?

he empties tonnes of toxic waste into the rivers and oceans that make their way into the food chain and onto our dinner plates?

he made us burn fossil fuels for our energy needs thus polluting the atmosphere so we have to breath it in?


If he did all that i'd be pretty peeved off. Unfortunately the only ones we have to blame for the ruination of our environment is ourselves.
 
so he blew up Chernobyl and sent the fallout to the residents giving them deformed children?

he empties tonnes of toxic waste into the rivers and oceans that make their way into the food chain and onto our dinner plates?

he made us burn fossil fuels for our energy needs thus polluting the atmosphere so we have to breath it in?


If he did all that i'd be pretty peeved off. Unfortunately the only ones we have to blame for the ruination of our environment is ourselves.

Thats great and all but why didn't god just make us so we wouldn't get cancer? Or why didn't he just not put radioactive material where we could get to it? Radiation from the sun causes cancer. Did humanity create the sun? I'm pretty sure we didn't. Also, if god hadn't screwed up making those unnecessary dinosaurs we wouldn't have fossil fuels to burn today to begin with, would we?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Thats great and all but why didn't god just make us so we wouldn't get cancer? Or why didn't he just not put radioactive material where we could get to it? Radiation from the sun causes cancer. Did humanity create the sun? I'm pretty sure we didn't. Also, if god hadn't screwed up making those unnecessary dinosaurs we wouldn't have fossil fuels to burn today to begin with, would we?

lol

we didnt create the sun, but we surely did create the hole in the ozone layer which lets in the radiation which causes the cancer

what silly humans we are :yes:
 
lol

we didnt create the sun, but we surely did create the hole in the ozone layer which lets in the radiation which causes the cancer

what silly humans we are :yes:

We are. If god had not made us so silly in the first place. Or put us together better, poor little timmy wouldn't have to die a slow agonizing death from cancer.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
We are. If god had not made us so silly in the first place. Or put us together better, poor little timmy wouldn't have to die a slow agonizing death from cancer.

we certainly behave silly, but we certainly weren't made to be independent...so when we've finally worked that out he'll be there to pick up the pieces.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Levite said:
I think one or both of two answers could be the case. The more direct answer is that there is no free will without evil-- I know you didn't want to hear that, but I'm sorry, it happens to be the case.
In as much as I don't accept the idea of free will it's not a viable answer, no matter how much you play with it.

The more indirect answer is that in the passage in Isaiah, ra may not mean evil.
But in as much as that's the word most commonly used, the implication is that its meaning is the one the passage intends to convey. If you have issues with the intended meaning of "ra'" then it's something you would have to take up with the translators. However, as for these other translations such as "disaster" and "calamity," they don't serve the loving nature of god much better. They imply the loving and just god of Abraham specifically brought disaster and calamity into the world, which is hardly an admirable thing to do.

It usually does, but the verse in Isaiah is composed in poetic parallels. Yotzer ohr uvoreh choshech (I form light and create darkness) oseh shalom uvoreh et ha-ra (I make peace and create evil): light and darkness are clearly a poetic parallel, and are used as such all over Biblical literature. But peace and evil do not occur anywhere else in Biblical literature as a pairing, and there is no clear reason for them to parallel each other.
So what? Additional usage or not doesn't compromise the message of Isaiah 45:7

Unless we read shalom not as "peace" but as "completion," (which the word can absolutely mean, provided the letters are pointed differently), which was, classically, a euphemism for order, and ra as "chaos," a usage not uncommon to the classical and medieval Jewish philosophers writing either in refutation of or under the influence of the Greek philosophers. In which case the proper translation of oseh shalom uvoreh et ha-ra is "I make order and I create chaos," which is a perfect parallel.
But there's no reason to require the two be parallel. If one was perhaps constructing perfect prose for the enjoyment of the reader this may be worth considering, but I'm sure that god would have been more concerned with getting the facts right. Your apologetic here suggests god created order and chaos just so he could express himself poetically.

If that is what Isaiah meant in that verse, then it seems to me that the verse is a reminder that much of what we often mislabel as evil is not evil at all-- diseases, natural disasters, accidents, and other misfortunes we suffer-- but are merely part of the necessary structure of the universe.
But chaos (disorder) is hardly a condition worth bragging about. It's like a carpenter bragging about the boards he sawed in half. In fact, I can't imagine any state of being in which only order prevailed. Disorder to some degree seems a necessary condition in any material world. It's nothing more than the deviation from a perceived correct condition. Evil, on the other hand, is not a necessity.

Even in modern parlance, we understand that chaos-- the apparently disordered patterning of probabilities and entropic thermodynamic degradation-- is part of how the universe functions. Yet as a force of nature, it is impersonal, incapable of being evil because it is incapable of malice.
Sorry, but straining to turn ra', with its primary meaning of evil into chaos, not even a listed meaning by Strong's, is too much of an apologetic stretch.

In all, I think it's fair to assume that the translators of the Bible used the words they did because that's the meaning they wished to convey. If they had wished to say that god meant chaos, then that's the word they would have used. And knowing a bit about the publishing business, I believe the other translations, which use different English terms for ra', are simply pandering to the consumer who wishes to avoid the whole "god created evil" issue.
 

Ninez

Member
The "evil" there spoken of and the "evil" that's suggested from a morality standpoint are two completely different things. Obviously it's impossible for Jehovah to do anything evil from a morality standpoint because he encompasses everything that is "Holy", or "clean". If you are suggesting that the evil which eventually led to mankind downfall was created by Jehovah, that makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever given all that he's done/doing to counter it.

The "evil" at the mentioned scriptured refers to that of calamity/disaster/destruction which he will bring upon his unrepentant opposers.
 
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