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"I . . . CREATE EVIL" But why?

Skwim

Veteran Member
The "evil" there spoken of and the "evil" that's suggested from a morality standpoint are two completely different things.
Prove it.

Obviously it's impossible for Jehovah to do anything evil from a morality standpoint because he encompasses everything that is "Holy", or "clean".
That's begging the question.

If you are suggesting that the evil which eventually led to mankind downfall was created by Jehovah, that makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever given all that he's done/doing to counter it.
Oh you mean like sending plagues upon the innocent, or killing all of Egypt's first born, or commanding Moses to slaughter 24,000 people and hang their heads in the sun, or using slavery as a punishment. You mean those things that he did to counter evil?

The "evil" at the mentioned scriptured refers to that of calamity/disaster/destruction which he will bring upon his unrepentant opposers.
Prove it.

As an unmodified term in Isaiah 45:7 it can only be construed in its broadest, all encompassing sense. To narrow its meaning requires a good deal of supporting evidence, and I have yet to see any.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
As an unmodified term in Isaiah 45:7 it can only be construed in its broadest, all encompassing sense. To narrow its meaning requires a good deal of supporting evidence, and I have yet to see any.

its broadest and all encompassing sense would include 'calamity, disaster, suffering, loss, infliction, peril...

but you seem to want to confine it to 'moral badness'

As we all know, sometimes war (which is the calamity, disaster, suffering, loss, infliction and peril brought upon the enemy) is necessary to achieve peace. And if you look closely at the verse in Isaiah, the evil is spoken of in company with peace. So we can understand the context by taking that into consideration.
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
its broadest and all encompassing sense would include 'calamity, disaster, suffering, loss, infliction, peril...

but you seem to want to confine it to 'moral badness'

As we all know, sometimes war (which is the calamity, disaster, suffering, loss, infliction and peril brought upon the enemy) is necessary to achieve peace. And if you look closely at the verse in Isaiah, the evil is spoken of in company with peace. So we can understand the context by taking that into consideration.

Yeah war is a very bad way that "humans" deal with problems of peace. We are talking about God are we not? I love how Christians talk about how great there God is and then put him in a box when its convenient for them.

Secondly, I am going to trust someone who has spent his entire life studying translations over some person on the internet saying, "Nuh uh it doesn't say that, my best friend Shirly said so!!!"

/end rant.
 

GabrielWithoutWings

Well-Known Member
If I had to just up and guess based upon the verse as translated with no commentary, then I would say that evil was created to give His rebellious children a reason to cry out to Him again.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Yeah war is a very bad way that "humans" deal with problems of peace. We are talking about God are we not? I love how Christians talk about how great there God is and then put him in a box when its convenient for them.

Secondly, I am going to trust someone who has spent his entire life studying translations over some person on the internet saying, "Nuh uh it doesn't say that, my best friend Shirly said so!!!"

/end rant.

go back and look at the definition for evil

No one is denying that Isaiah says 'God creates evil'

But look at it in context and look at what evil is. Evil is a woe, its the suffering experienced by a disaster or calamity. Evil is an act...its something any of us can do and yes its something God can do. He can make peace or he can make evil.

what exactly do you think evil is?
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) says: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

But why?

Why did god create evil?

.

Isaiah 45
[...] 9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?
10 Woe to him who says to his father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to his mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'

What do you think this means?
 

Ninez

Member
I'm not good with the quoting thing but this is to Skwim.

1. Prove to me how they're the same

2. Unless you can prove otherwise I stand by my point

3. The example of the Egyptians was a warning to Pharaoh to release his chosen people or suffer the consequences. How exactly is that evil on God's part? Jehovah's vengeance never comes without warning. Okay and the 24,000 people killed? Those were 24,000 people who ultimately allowed a corrupt false prophet (Balaam) turn them against Jehovahs righteous ways and towards one of wickedness.


There's a difference between Vengeance and Evil...Jehovah is a God of vengeance.
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
I'm not good with the quoting thing but this is to Skwim.

Just click on the 'quote' button on the lower right hand corner of the post. Make sure anything that you're quoting is within the bracketed tags ('quote' at the beginning and '/quote' at the end.)
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
its broadest and all encompassing sense would include 'calamity, disaster, suffering, loss, infliction, peril...

but you seem to want to confine it to 'moral badness'
Hmmm, really? Didn't mean to.

As we all know, sometimes war (which is the calamity, disaster, suffering, loss, infliction and peril brought upon the enemy) is necessary to achieve peace.
Sometimes, yes, but it's also often employed simply for gain, such as territory or resources.

And if you look closely at the verse in Isaiah, the evil is spoken of in company with peace. So we can understand the context by taking that into consideration.
Why? Why does the context necessarily have to be one of perfect contrast? As I mentioned previously, why would a god sending his creation an important message be more concerned with creating a clever contrast than imparting facts? Granted that god may have wanted to show his two sides---one nice and the other not so nice---but there's no reason to take the words he chose as denoting perfect opposites. And isn't it interesting that while people want to fudge the word "evil" they never do so with "peace." This, in of itself, demonstrates a one-way bias.


GabrielWithoutWings said:
If I had to just up and guess based upon the verse as translated with no commentary, then I would say that evil was created to give His rebellious children a reason to cry out to Him again.
But if we consider the serpent in the garden to be evil---I think most would agree that his ploy to bring sin into world was pretty evil---then evil predates A&E.


strikevipreMKII said:
Isaiah 45
[...] 9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?
10 Woe to him who says to his father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to his mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'

What do you think this means?
Irrelevant.


Ninez said:
1. Prove to me how they're the same
No. You're the one making the distinction, introducing it as a new element, so the burden of proof lies with you.

2. Unless you can prove otherwise I stand by my point
So be it.

3. The example of the Egyptians was a warning to Pharaoh to release his chosen people or suffer the consequences. How exactly is that evil on God's part? Jehovah's vengeance never comes without warning. Okay and the 24,000 people killed? Those were 24,000 people who ultimately allowed a corrupt false prophet (Balaam) turn them against Jehovahs righteous ways and towards one of wickedness.
For an omnipotent being, who is capable of doing A B S O L U T E L Y ANYTHING he wishes, which would include selective punishment, to kill the innocent along with the guilty is evil. Now you may not think unnecessarily killing innocent people is evil, but I do.

There's a difference between Vengeance and Evil...Jehovah is a God of vengeance.
An indiscriminate god who lets his vengeance fall on the innocent as well as the guilty.

And is vengeance really an admirable attribute, one worth emulating? It's taking harmful revenge on someone, and indicative of an unforgiving, unkind nature. But then this is quite in keeping with a god who would deliberately create evil. So while I agree there is a difference between vengeance and evil, the two do go hand in hand.
 
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no-body

Well-Known Member
Because Adam and Eve ate the fruit and blah, blah, blah free will. The main problem with the free will argument is in the definition of "evil" why would an all knowing omnipotent God bind us to such archaic black and white rules on what evil is? Why is the morality and culture of a bunch of dessert shepherds "perfect" ?

He created the world so we don't get to judge is a dumb argument. It boils down to meaning that God only allows us free will so we can choose not to use it.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
However, as for these other translations such as "disaster" and "calamity," they don't serve the loving nature of god much better. They imply the loving and just god of Abraham specifically brought disaster and calamity into the world, which is hardly an admirable thing to do.

Disaster and calamity would seem to be inevitable effects of the nature of the universe. If what you are really asking is "Why did God create this universe, rather than some other universe," that may be a perfectly valid philosophical question, but I confess I do not find it a compelling one: this is the universe we have. This is what God created. Since God is omnipotent, I think we can only presume that this was the model of universe that He decided would work best. And either we are willing to trust that He is doing the best He can, and we move on to the more practical issues of how we live in the universe we inhabit, or we do not trust, and we never get past primordial issues of metaphysical cosmology.

Personally, in any case it seems to me that as disaster and calamity has to do with forces of nature, which were here before humanity, and will be here after humanity is gone, it hardly seems likely that God intended them personally, and we have no reason to take them so.

But there's no reason to require the two be parallel.

Deconstruction of Biblical poetry into parallels and chiasms in order to better understand the often abstruse usages of words by Biblical authors is a standard technique of academic Biblical criticism. The presumption is that parallels were indeed an important literary device, and authors wrote relatively strictly to those forms. I have done nothing that is at all unorthodox or uncommon in Biblical criticism with this speculation, so it seems to me that you simply do not like the techniques of the field. Which is fine, of course, but it seems like it limits the possibilities in reading the text.

Your apologetic here suggests god created order and chaos just so he could express himself poetically.

God did not write Isaiah. Isaiah (or at least, the School of Isaiah) wrote Isaiah. Even if the author is faithfully setting down the prophet's account of his revelatory experience, it is still dependent upon the prophet's comprehension of what he has experienced, the comprehension of the author of what the prophet has related, and even then is subject to the need of the author to cast the experience into the poetry of song. In other words, your construction of what you term my "apologetic" is by definition, backward.

Evil, on the other hand, is not a necessity.

Since you do not accept a doctrine of free will, I can't help you. I don't pretend to understand how the universe would work in a paradigm without free will.

Sorry, but straining to turn ra', with its primary meaning of evil into chaos, not even a listed meaning by Strong's, is too much of an apologetic stretch.

Strong's is hardly the last word in translation. There have been any number of occurrences of words in Biblical literature that were thought to mean only a certain number of things during the era of their writing, which later scholarship has demonstrated could have meant yet another thing, based on later usages that were then found to have earlier precedents as the archaeological record has expanded.

In all, I think it's fair to assume that the translators of the Bible used the words they did because that's the meaning they wished to convey.

Up until extremely recently, translations of the Bible were absolutely notorious not only for mistranslation, but for utter deafness to the use of idiom, slang, hyperbole, double-entendre, punning, and other such devices. Even today, very few Bibles come anywhere close to accurately translating even the literal meaning of the text as a whole, let alone what the poetic implications of the denser prophetic texts might be. And in any case, between the original intent of the authors of the text, and the best practical understandings of today's readers to aid in relating to God and living a good Jewish life, I see little relevance in the motivations and priorities of non-Jewish translators. If one is bound and determined to adopt the texts of another tradition into one's own, without context or tradition of interpretation, then IMO, any undesired consequences are one's own affair.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) says: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

But why?

In Scripture evil is Not always synonymous with wrong doing.

The Flood of Noah's day was an evil or calamity needed to protect the upright.

God uses calamity on rebellion against his people.

Proverbs [21v18] informs the wicked will be a ransom for the righteous....
That is why Proverbs [10v30;2vs21,22] can also say the wicked will not inhabit the earth.
Psalm [37vs11,29,38] shows only the humble meek will be here forever.
In order for that to happen it will take an evil day or a time of calamity to be used against the rebellious as described at Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19v15.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Disaster and calamity would seem to be inevitable effects of the nature of the universe. If what you are really asking is "Why did God create this universe, rather than some other universe," that may be a perfectly valid philosophical question, but I confess I do not find it a compelling one: this is the universe we have. This is what God created. Since God is omnipotent, I think we can only presume that this was the model of universe that He decided would work best. And either we are willing to trust that He is doing the best He can, and we move on to the more practical issues of how we live in the universe we inhabit, or we do not trust, and we never get past primordial issues of metaphysical cosmology.

Personally, in any case it seems to me that as disaster and calamity has to do with forces of nature, which were here before humanity, and will be here after humanity is gone, it hardly seems likely that God intended them personally, and we have no reason to take them so.
Evil is typically taken as a deliberate harm. So natural disasters and calamities would be excluded, UNLESS god expressly created them to bring harm.


Deconstruction of Biblical poetry into parallels and chiasms in order to better understand the often abstruse usages of words by Biblical authors is a standard technique of academic Biblical criticism. The presumption is that parallels were indeed an important literary device, and authors wrote relatively strictly to those forms.
So it's poetry is it. Thing is, Isaiah isn't a book of poetry, but prophecy. The prose in chapter 45 is outright declarative in form, filled with " I am"s, "I will"s, and "I do" this and "I do" that (there are a few rhetorical questions included as introductions to specific issues), none of which take a poetic form. The only verse in the chapter that takes the symmetrical construction of " A and B, and A and B" is 45:7 It's an anomaly, and as such speaks against any attempt to convey a parallel message. To change horses in mid-stream and then back again by employing a literary device for one verse simply doesn't make expository sense. It's far more reasonable to read it in the same way all the other verses read: as declarative prose.


I have done nothing that is at all unorthodox or uncommon in Biblical criticism with this speculation, so it seems to me that you simply do not like the techniques of the field. Which is fine, of course, but it seems like it limits the possibilities in reading the text.
Well, if one wants to open up opportunities to reinterpret passages this would be a good way to go about it, obviously leaving room to find meanings that better suit one's needs.


God did not write Isaiah. Isaiah (or at least, the School of Isaiah) wrote Isaiah. Even if the author is faithfully setting down the prophet's account of his revelatory experience, it is still dependent upon the prophet's comprehension of what he has experienced, the comprehension of the author of what the prophet has related, and even then is subject to the need of the author to cast the experience into the poetry of song. In other words, your construction of what you term my "apologetic" is by definition, backward.
So one should be wary of any passage in the Bible meaning what it says. Okay, I'll go for that.

Strong's is hardly the last word in translation. There have been any number of occurrences of words in Biblical literature that were thought to mean only a certain number of things during the era of their writing, which later scholarship has demonstrated could have meant yet another thing, based on later usages that were then found to have earlier precedents as the archaeological record has expanded.
Fine. Present another source and tell me why it's better than Strong's.


Up until extremely recently, translations of the Bible were absolutely notorious not only for mistranslation, but for utter deafness to the use of idiom, slang, hyperbole, double-entendre, punning, and other such devices. Even today, very few Bibles come anywhere close to accurately translating even the literal meaning of the text as a whole, let alone what the poetic implications of the denser prophetic texts might be. And in any case, between the original intent of the authors of the text, and the best practical understandings of today's readers to aid in relating to God and living a good Jewish life, I see little relevance in the motivations and priorities of non-Jewish translators. If one is bound and determined to adopt the texts of another tradition into one's own, without context or tradition of interpretation, then IMO, any undesired consequences are one's own affair.
Hey, I won't dispute the fact that the Bible is replete with errors and contradictions; however, my OP question is directed at those who think otherwise and believe verses like Isaiah 45:7 are proper translations of "god's message": "evil" meaning evil.


URAVIP2ME said:
In Scripture evil is Not always synonymous with wrong doing.

The Flood of Noah's day was an evil or calamity needed to protect the upright.
This is simply redefining evil so as to make it more palpable. Sorry, but this is a No No,

God uses calamity on rebellion against his people.
And in spades no less.
 
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Its simple really. Mass murder of thousands of helpless men, women, and children is evil. You can try to justify such an evil act any way you want but it is still an evil act. The only time killing could not be considered murder is if it is done in self defense. Since god cannot die it is impossible for him to kill in self defence. God kills out of anger and jealousy. How is that not evil?
 

Ninez

Member
Its simple really. Mass murder of thousands of helpless men, women, and children is evil. You can try to justify such an evil act any way you want but it is still an evil act. The only time killing could not be considered murder is if it is done in self defense. Since god cannot die it is impossible for him to kill in self defence. God kills out of anger and jealousy. How is that not evil?

But at the same time instead of just killing people for doing wrong he lovingly warns them to turn around from their badness which in turns leads them to peace? Yeah that doesn't really make a lot of sense for someone that's 'evil' to me. If he's so evil, he wouldn't have given his son "in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life" (John 3:16)

An evil god wouldn't be interested in the well being of his creation and wouldn't bother warning them when they do bad. "“I take delight,” declared Jehovah God, “not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why is it that you should die, O house of Israel?” (Ezek. 33:11)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) says: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

But why?


Why   did   god   create   evil?




Obviously this isn't a condition that was going to pop up all on it its own, one that would simply materialize as the antithesis of peace, or god wouldn't have found it necessary to specifically create it. A feat so unique he even makes note of it, and insures it's never forgotten by putting in the Bible.

And just so there's no tap dancing with the word "evil," Strong's Lexicon lists the following meanings (transliterated as the Hebrew "ra`"):
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity

b) evil, injury, wrong

c) evil (ethical)
Note that "evil" is the primary meaning of "ra`." And although some Bible versions fudge and use terms such as "disaster" or "calamity" in place of "evil," the most preferred rendering is "evil."

So again I ask:

Why did god create evil?


(And please, let's have none of those specious "So we would have free will" arguments.)
.
All I want to know before I involve myself in this thread, is whether you are asking a question you really want an answer to or if this is merely another attempt to prove that God does not exist, since He would not have created evil. I've kicked myself for being pulled into debates on this subject so many times in the past. I just don't want to do it again without knowing what I'm getting into.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Why did god create evil?


(And please, let's have none of those specious "So we would have free will" arguments.)
.
1) What's specious about it?
2) You realize this is like a Creationist demanding to know how we got here, only with "none of that specious evolution stuff," right?
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
How should they be killed instead? Please enlighten me.

Considering that God cursed us after we ate the apple the reasonable answer would be we shouldn't die at all. God should of never cursed the entire species for 2 peoples mistakes.

If you take a non literal approach to the Bible then the clear answer would be when they get older and in peace.

All you have to do is ask yourself, "Would I want to die painfully tomorrow?" if the answer is no then you know exactly how wouldn't want to go out. Unless your suicidal.
 
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