"I . . . CREATE EVIL" But why?

[Blackdog22]

But at the same time instead of just killing people for doing wrong he lovingly warns them to turn around from their badness which in turns leads them to peace? Yeah that doesn't really make a lot of sense for someone that's 'evil' to me. If he's so evil, he wouldn't have given his son "in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life" (John 3:16)

An evil god wouldn't be interested in the well being of his creation and wouldn't bother warning them when they do bad. "“I take delight,” declared Jehovah God, “not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why is it that you should die, O house of Israel?” (Ezek. 33:11)

Lovingly warns them? If I told you to tie your shoes or I was going to murder you would you consider my previous statement one of love? That is pretty backwards thinking there.

Also, you are assuming he gave his son. Just answer me this question what did his son do for us? If you read the Old Testament God clearly forgave David, Moses, Noah, Abraham, Aaron, and heck Elisha went straight to Heaven. So obviously God had the power to forgive at will before Jesus. Elisha was proof that people were capable of going to Heaven before Jesus. The curse from the "fall of man" is still upon us, we die, women still have pain in child birth, food is still scarce, the earth is still destroying us through natural disasters. So he obviously didn't die for the sins of Adam and Eve, and thus the sins of us all. So what exactly did he do?

Heck, were still here debating whether this whacko exists. There is never any clear answer because he ignores all of us. Jesus thought enough of his disciples to show up to them and let them touch his hands, and we get Benny Hen? Even if God does exist, I don't trust anything about him.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Irrelevant.

Explain.

 

[Katzpur]

Considering that God cursed us after we ate the apple the reasonable answer would be we shouldn't die at all.

Never? Oh, hell! I'd hate the thought that I'm going to have to live forever. I'm definitely not looking forward to dying in the near future, but sooner or later I'm going to be ready to check out, even if I'm in good health.

God should of never cursed the entire species for 2 peoples mistakes.

Well, I don't believe He did, so for me it's a moot point.

If you take a non literal approach to the Bible then the clear answer would be when they get older and in peace.

I do take a non-literal approach to the Bible, and I can't imagine why anyone would want to die in pain. I mean, that's pretty much a no-brainer. On the other hand, I remember falling down and skinning my knee when I was a kid. I didn't like pain then either. Boy, it sure does suck that we have to skin our knees, get hangnails and cold sores. Life is so unfair.

 

[Skwim]

All I want to know before I involve myself in this thread, is whether you are asking a question you really want an answer to or if this is merely another attempt to prove that God does not exist, since He would not have created evil. I've kicked myself for being pulled into debates on this subject so many times in the past. I just don't want to do it again without knowing what I'm getting into.

Christians jump up and down with humble glee in their reverence of their god, declaring god is good; god is great; god's love never fails; god's mercy shines on all of us; praise to god for his holy grace, kindness, and salvation; and praise be to god with everlasting thanks. So if the Christian god is so good what's he doing going around creating evil?    EVIL ≠ Good.

That's, where I'm coming from.

Why would a "good" god create evil?

Verstehst?
​

 

[Skwim]

Explain.

ir·rel·e·vant (

-r

l

-v

nt)adj. Unrelated to the matter being considered.

ir·rel

e·vant·ly adv.
Synonyms: irrelevant, extraneous, immaterial, impertinent
These adjectives mean not pertinent to the subject under consideration: an irrelevant comment; a question extraneous to the discussion; an objection that is immaterial; mentioned several impertinent facts.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Christians jump up and down with humble glee in their reverence of their god, declaring god is good; god is great; god's love never fails; god's mercy shines on all of us; praise to god for his holy grace, kindness, and salvation; and praise be to god with everlasting thanks. So if the Christian god is so good what's he doing going around creating evil?    EVIL ≠ Good.

That's, where I'm coming from.

Why would a "good" god create evil?

Verstehst?
​

I ask again:
Does the clay say to the potter:
'What are you making?'

 

[JustWondering]

I ask again:
Does the clay say to the potter:
'What are you making?'

Why not? There are talking snakes in the bible, why not talking clay?

 

[Skwim]

I ask again:
Does the clay say to the potter:
'What are you making?'

Why not? As long as it's making up all kinds of nice things about the potter why not question why he's smashing all those fine pots he just made?

 

[Katzpur]

Christians jump up and down with humble glee in their reverence of their god, declaring god is good; god is great; god's love never fails; god's mercy shines on all of us; praise to god for his holy grace, kindness, and salvation; and praise be to god with everlasting thanks. So if the Christian god is so good what's he doing going around creating evil?    EVIL ≠ Good.

That's, where I'm coming from.

Why would a "good" god create evil?​

Verstehst?​

​

​

Wahrscheinlich nicht. Neben, du hast meine Frage nicht beantwortet.

I need a little more clarification... Are you speaking primarily of
1. Natural disasters. Why does God allow earthquakes and tsunamis?
2. Illnesses, death. Why don't we live forever in a perfect world?
3. Evil, depraved human beings. Why does God allow murderers and rapists to exist?

And why do you paint all Christians with the same brush? I am a Christian, but I can assure you, jumping up and down in humble glee is something I've never done. It's actually pretty amusing for me to try to picture myself doing that. For the record, though. I do believe in God, and I do believe evil pretty much has to exist in order for us to be able to even recognize good as "good." That's about all I'm going to say unless somebody gives me a pretty reasonable explanation of why a good God would have had to create a world in which evil was non-existant. In all the years I've been posting here, nobody has ever been able to do so.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Why not? As long as it's making up all kinds of nice things about the potter why not question why he's smashing all those fine pots he just made?

And I ask again:
Does the clay say to the potter:
What are you making? (In this case 'unmaking').

 

[Levite]

So it's poetry is it. Thing is, Isaiah isn't a book of poetry, but prophecy. The prose in chapter 45 is outright declarative in form, filled with " I am"s, "I will"s, and "I do" this and "I do" that (there are a few rhetorical questions included as introductions to specific issues), none of which take a poetic form. The only verse in the chapter that takes the symmetrical construction of " A and B, and A and B" is 45:7 It's an anomaly, and as such speaks against any attempt to convey a parallel message. To change horses in mid-stream and then back again by employing a literary device for one verse simply doesn't make expository sense. It's far more reasonable to read it in the same way all the other verses read: as declarative prose.

It is, actually, poetry. Very nearly the entirety of the Book of Isaiah, not to mention the rest of the prophetic books, to say nothing of a fairly large percentage of the Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) as a whole, are poetry. If they are being translated as prose-- which, unfortunately, they often are-- then it is mistranslation. And as for parallels as a poetic device, the Book of Isaiah, and even this chapter, is full of them-- the very first verse of chapter 45 uses the phrase lifto'ach lefanav daltot, u'she'arim lo yisgeru ("to open before him doors: the gates shall not be closed") which is a perfect chiastic inverse parallelism.

This is one more example of why it is singularly unproductive to read Tanakh in translation. If one really wishes to use it, it needs to be read in the original.

Fine. Present another source and tell me why it's better than Strong's.

Well, in this case, my source is largely me, having the necessary skills to be familiar with the language of the Tanakh and the phrases employed by later writers, and having written several papers in Rabbinical school that draw heavily upon this particular verse. However, in other cases, I would first and foremost go to Avraham Even-Shoshan's Konkordantzia Chadash L'Tanakh (A New Concordance of the Bible), or Eisenstein's Otzar Ma'amrei Tanakh (Concordance of Biblical Words). But if I were to restrict myself to English, I would absolutely go to Brown Driver and Briggs, Gesenius, or even Holladay, before resorting to Strong's. I might possibly go to Kohlenberger and Swanson's Hebrew-English Concordance to the Old Testament, as well. But I don't care much for Strong's translations, or even Kohlenberger and Swanson's, sometimes: I think they can be deaf to nuance from time to time, and on occasion I think they translate with a Christian eye toward scripture.

Hey, I won't dispute the fact that the Bible is replete with errors and contradictions; however, my OP question is directed at those who think otherwise and believe verses like Isaiah 45:7 are proper translations of "god's message": "evil" meaning evil.

Ah. Fundamentalists. Yes, that's not for me.

 

[JustWondering]

And I ask again:
Does the clay say to the potter:
What are you making? (In this case 'unmaking').

To me this basically means that god does not consider the life he creates sacred. The living, feeling, sentient life he creates are just things to play with as he chooses. So, how is god not evil again?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

To me this basically means that god does not consider the life he creates sacred. The living, feeling, sentient life he creates are just things to play with as he chooses. So, how is god not evil again?

What are you looking at when you say God is evil? God is a mirror. God shows you exactly what you expect from God. When you say God is evil, you are just saying: God is not doing what I think he should, were he a good god. In this, you are the clay, telling the potter he has no hands, and isn't making what you think he should make.

Again, I ask:
Does the clay say to the potter:
What are you making?

 

[JustWondering]

What are you looking at when you say God is evil?

I thought I made that clear in previous posts but since your asking, all the suffering and death in the world.

God is a mirror.

If your saying we are made in gods image that supports my case. Man is capable of great evil.

God shows you exactly what you expect from God. When you say God is evil, you are just saying: God is not doing what I think he should, were he a good god. In this, you are the clay, telling the potter he has no hands, and isn't making what you think he should make.

The problem with this analogy is that clay is an inanimate object whereas people are living sentient beings capable of rational thought and asking questions. Since this world sucks so hard it is a completely rational question to ask a creator god why he created life in this world to suck so much. I have yet to recieve a reasonable answer for this from god or anyone else.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Christians jump up and down with humble glee in their reverence of their god, declaring god is good; god is great; god's love never fails; god's mercy shines on all of us; praise to god for his holy grace, kindness, and salvation; and praise be to god with everlasting thanks. So if the Christian god is so good what's he doing going around creating evil?    EVIL ≠ Good.

Evil in Scripture is Not always synonymous with wrong doing.

What is God doing going around creating evil?
Evil in Scripture can mean use of calamity.
A calamity or evil necessary to preserve the upright.
-Proverbs 2vs21,22

Please notice Psalm 145v20; 92v7. God preserves all that love him:
but all the wicked he will destroy.
They will be destroyed by the words from Jesus mouth.
-Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19v15

The wicked will be a ransom for the righteous...........Proverbs 21v18; 10v30

 

[Skwim]

Wahrscheinlich nicht. Neben, du hast meine Frage nicht beantwortet.

Sicher habe ich. Du bist nur die Wahl, nicht zu verstehen

I need a little more clarification... Are you speaking primarily of
1. Natural disasters. Why does God allow earthquakes and tsunamis?
2. Illnesses, death. Why don't we live forever in a perfect world?
3. Evil, depraved human beings. Why does God allow murderers and rapists to exist?

God said he created evil, and as an unmodified word it can refer to:

adj.
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked:
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain;
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous:
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous:
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious:
n.
1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong;
2. That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
3. An evil force, power, or personification.
4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

​

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The problem with this analogy is that clay is an inanimate object whereas people are living sentient beings capable of rational thought and asking questions. Since this world sucks so hard it is a completely rational question to ask a creator god why he created life in this world to suck so much. I have yet to recieve a reasonable answer for this from god or anyone else.

First of all, God created an earthly paradise Garden of Eden that had two perfectly healthy people of sound mind and body that chose to disobey God.

By Adam disobeying God's law, then Adam was taking the law into his own hands and set up people rule as the best way of ruling instead of God rule or God's guidance and direction.

The book of Job [2v4] also shows a challenge to mankind.
Satan challenged that under pressure no one would be faithful to God.
Job and Jesus both proved Satan a liar.

What we are seeing is the sum result of people rule over God rule.
If all lived by the Golden Rule what would the world be like today?

Perhaps you heard the old adage of giving people enough rope and they will hang themselves. God has allowed mankind to rule himself [rope] now for thousands of years. So we are seeing that the total result is: man can not successfully direct his step as Jeremiah wrote [10v23].
So we need God to step in because man has shown beyond doubt man's way of ruling has dominated man to his injury.- Ecc 8v9.

Jesus told that the good news [not bad news] of God's kingdom would be proclaimed world wide before the end of all badness on earth comes.
-Matt 24v14; Rev 19v15; Isaiah 11v4; Psalm 92v7; 37 vs 11,29,38
The happy climax of Revelation is that Jesus will rid the earth of wickedness and usher in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

I thought I made that clear in previous posts but since your asking, all the suffering and death in the world.



If your saying we are made in gods image that supports my case. Man is capable of great evil.



The problem with this analogy is that clay is an inanimate object whereas people are living sentient beings capable of rational thought and asking questions. Since this world sucks so hard it is a completely rational question to ask a creator god why he created life in this world to suck so much. I have yet to recieve a reasonable answer for this from god or anyone else.

Let me say again:
When you say 'God is evil', you are actually saying 'God is not doing (or has done) this creation thing they way I think he should (or should have), were he a good God.'

In effect, you are postulating that your view of good and evil is the right view of good and evil, and any sane person can see that...so why can't God?

To that, I again ask:
Does the clay say to the potter:
What are you making?

We are the clay. Rational, reasoning, thinking clay. We CAN tell the potter that he's doing a bad job. And you ARE telling him that. That is not the point. The question isn't asking does the clay actually talk to the potter? Can clay really do that?
It is asking whether you are putting yourself in the creation position, or the creator position.

If you wish to be the creator, then don't ask whether God is creating evil, or is evil. You are the creator, not God. If you wish to be the creation, then don't ask why God is creating evil. You do not know evil, nor do you know good, so how can you say what is being created?

One does not see a house from the foundation. Nor does one see it from the outside. Do not ask why a window is there, or why the door is here. Be in the house. That is all that is asked of the creation.
Anything else, and the creation becomes the creator.

 

[JustWondering]

First of all, God created an earthly paradise Garden of Eden that had two perfectly healthy people of sound mind and body that chose to disobey God.

By Adam disobeying God's law, then Adam was taking the law into his own hands and set up people rule as the best way of ruling instead of God rule or God's guidance and direction.

The book of Job [2v4] also shows a challenge to mankind.
Satan challenged that under pressure no one would be faithful to God.
Job and Jesus both proved Satan a liar.

What we are seeing is the sum result of people rule over God rule.
If all lived by the Golden Rule what would the world be like today?

Perhaps you heard the old adage of giving people enough rope and they will hang themselves. God has allowed mankind to rule himself [rope] now for thousands of years. So we are seeing that the total result is: man can not successfully direct his step as Jeremiah wrote [10v23].
So we need God to step in because man has shown beyond doubt man's way of ruling has dominated man to his injury.- Ecc 8v9.

Jesus told that the good news [not bad news] of God's kingdom would be proclaimed world wide before the end of all badness on earth comes.
-Matt 24v14; Rev 19v15; Isaiah 11v4; Psalm 92v7; 37 vs 11,29,38
The happy climax of Revelation is that Jesus will rid the earth of wickedness and usher in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

And I am still waiting for a reasonable answer.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

And I am still waiting for a reasonable answer.

Did you read this?

We are the clay. Rational, reasoning, thinking clay. We CAN tell the potter that he's doing a bad job. And you ARE telling him that. That is not the point. The question isn't asking does the clay actually talk to the potter? Can clay really do that?
It is asking whether you are putting yourself in the creation position, or the creator position.

Ever put yourself in the 'creation' position before? I'm guessing not.