I don't particularly want to sin...

[TagliatelliMonster]

Naturally it is all about intention.

If you realize this, then why do you insist on making sweeping statements that completely ignore things like contextual situations, purpose and intent?

Why then do you dismiss with but a handwave every example I gave you where it is all about intent and purpose?

That does not change the fact that generally speaking, lies are bad.

I've just spend 3 posts explaining to you how that isn't the case.

You keep going on about nazis, as if we are surrounded by them.

80 years ago, we were. My own mother is alive and well and remembers well how Nazi soldiers marched through the streets and forced themselves in her home to steal their food and just do what oppressors do.
It's really not that long ago.

But in any case, the real reason why I use them as an example, is because it illustrates the point more easily. Because one would think that nobody in his right mind would ever think that lying to them about the whereabouts of jews would be a bad thing, since it's such an extremely easy and obvious example.

It seems I was mistaken though............... Which is a bit disturbing to me, tbh.

I gave you other non-nazi examples as well. You dismissed those also.

I am well aware that there are racists and nationalists in the society where I live, but that does not cause me to lie. as yet.

So you would not lie if lying meant saving the lives of innocent people and / or preventing their deaths?
For real?

What do you think makes up a society, other than ourselves?
If we can't set a good example, then who will?

I consider saving the lives of innocent people to be a rather good example.
Apparently you don't. Apparently you think that not lying is more important then saving human lives.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I consider saving the lives of innocent people to be a rather good example.
Apparently you don't. Apparently you think that not lying is more important then saving human lives.

You can make devious accusations to your heart's content.
The like of you, suggest that G-d ignores people who suffer.

G-d allowed the Jews to suffer at the hands of the nazis because he didn't stop them. so you will say.

I'm sure you would like to 'tar me with the same brush'.
G-d knows what is in your heart and my heart.

..trying to apportion blame to me for other people's actions does not wash.
G-d knows all about each and every one of us. Lies are dangerous.
You are telling me what I should believe about lies.
You can think it smart to lie. I do not.

Clearly, as I have already stated, a war situation is different.
That is why many "terrorists" lie and kill others.
They consider themselves to be at war.

There are different ways of behaving, and behaving badly because your enemy does might be justifiable, but forgiveness is superior if at all possible.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The like of you, suggest that G-d ignores people who suffer.

The "likes of me" don't even believe there is a god to ignore anything.
So that comment doesn't make sense.

The subject is "lying" and the contextual / situational morality that underpins it.

G-d allowed the Jews to suffer at the hands of the nazis because he didn't stop them. so you will say.

I didn't say anything of the sort, nor did that even cross my mind. It literally has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Try and pay attention.

I'm sure you would like to 'tar me with the same brush'.
G-d knows what is in your heart and my heart.

..trying to apportion blame to me for other people's actions does not wash.

Didn't do that either. No idea where you got this idea.

G-d knows all about each and every one of us. Lies are dangerous.
You are telling me what I should believe about lies.
You can think it smart to lie. I do not.

I'm not telling you anything. I'm asking you questions.
And yes, your answers disturb me and I consider them morally bankrupt. I'm also explaining why. You're not even attempting to defend your answers or explaining them.

Instead, you start yapping about things I'm not even talking about and basicly arguing strawmen.

Ow well.

Clearly, as I have already stated, a war situation is different.
That is why many "terrorists" lie and kill others.
They consider themselves to be at war.

Every situation is different. And I gave you enough non-war examples.
And even so, you haven't actually unambiguously said that lying to nazi's in war situation to save the lives of innocent families, is the moral thing to do.

If anything, you seem to remain firmly on the side that even such lies are bad and that it's somehow better, even in such situation, to be truthful instead - even if it means certain death for innocent people.

If this is not true, then please come out and state it clearly that you indeed think that lying in such a situation is the moral thing to do.

There are different ways of behaving, and behaving badly because your enemy does might be justifiable, but forgiveness is superior if at all possible.

See? Ambiguous.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If this is not true, then please come out and state it clearly that you indeed think that lying in such a situation is the moral thing to do.

I have no interest in playing your games of "judge and jury".
I have repeated many times that I don't like lies.

I am not in the habit of congratulating people for lying, regardless of the circumstances.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have no interest in playing your games of "judge and jury".
I have repeated many times that I don't like lies.

I am not in the habit of congratulating people for lying, regardless of the circumstances.

There you go.
Thanks for making my point.

I guess my point stands then.

 

[Muffled]

But the Nazis had Jesus (as they were Lutheran and Catholic), and killed over 6 million Jews, vastly more than the 9-11 hijackers.

So perhaps your perspective is biased to protect your own alliance with them as a Christian? Or do you think Nazis are in heaven?

I believe it is only the most courageous that could stand against the Nazi party. So I believe even that can be forgiven but I have different views on Heaven from most Christians.

 

[Muffled]

Christians are weird.

I believe weirdness like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Or everyone to his own taste said the farmer as he kissed the cow.

 

[Muffled]

The Bible is filled with claims, not evidence.
It's circular reasoning to attempt to prove the Bible by quoting the Bible.

I believe you are making a claim that the bible is filled with claims. I believe you do not have evidence to back that up.

 

[F1fan]

I believe it is only the most courageous that could stand against the Nazi party. So I believe even that can be forgiven but I have different views on Heaven from most Christians.

So are you suggesting you (as an individual, and not a god) would excuse Germans who cooperated with the Nazis if they lacked the courage to oppose them?

If so, the question is why isn't your God instilling Christians with the courage to oppose evil? A useless God if it just sits back and watches atrocities occur against its chosen people by Christians.

 

[F1fan]

I believe you are making a claim that the bible is filled with claims. I believe you do not have evidence to back that up.

No, he's making an observation. When a text refers to a God, and no such God is known to exist as described, nor is there objective, factual evidence demonstrating it is even plausible, that is deemed a claim by the story IF it is asserted true by fallible mortals, like yourself.

That's why you believe in God and don't say you know God exists. You could be mistaken in your belief.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I believe you are making a claim that the bible is filled with claims. I believe you do not have evidence to back that up.

The evidence is the existence of the Bible (several different kinds of Bibles, in fact) that make(s) a ton of claims.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It's always immoral, just doesn't always warrant the full penalty of the law.

I disagree. And I think it's been clearly demonstrated in this thread that lying can be a moral action.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Man has a spiritual dimension to his constitution. He can discern things that are unseen and unquantifiable. Some are wiser and more perceptive than others, and some are downright shallow and oblivious. Either way, there is a spiritual warfare in this world that has motivated man to commit such heinous crimes that one can barely fathom.
Man, does not act in a pragmatic manner like all other creatures on earth, he is influenced by spiritual perversions and wickedness.

More claims.

I repeat, "Once you have demonstrated that "men are spiritual beings" (Not women too, or ... ?), then that is the time to believe it."

 

[SkepticThinker]

Exactly.
If we think that lies can be often justified, we are very likely to lie, not only to others but ourselves as well.
eg. it's alright to lie under oath because of [such-and-such]

One of the worst things we can do is lie about G-d for worldly gain.

I think it's been pretty clearly demonstrated in this thread that lying can be a moral action.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I disagree. And I think it's been clearly demonstrated in this thread that lying can be a moral action.

It can't be shown that lying is a moral action.
It underpins the basis of all legal systems.

Only anarchists and those wishing to be pedantic would argue against.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Don't be silly..
Where does it end?

Many people think that it is OK to lie about their income .. who's to say whether they are right? You?

It depends on the situation, clearly.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It can't be shown that lying is a moral action.
It underpins the basis of all legal systems.

Only anarchists and those wishing to be pedantic would argue against.

We've just shown you that. How did you miss it?

Lying to a Nazi who has come to your house looking for Jews you've got hiding there in order to save their lives is a moral action.
Other posters have given other examples.

Why are you acting like this hasn't happened?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Lying to a Nazi who has come to your house looking for Jews you've got hiding there in order to save their lives is a moral action.

Would a nazi think so?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Would a nazi think so?

Is that a serious question?

 

[DNB]

Exactly.
If we think that lies can be often justified, we are very likely to lie, not only to others but ourselves as well.
eg. it's alright to lie under oath because of [such-and-such]

One of the worst things we can do is lie about G-d for worldly gain.

You are absolutely correct, Muhammad isa, ...wisdom transcends the physical!