I don't particularly want to sin...

[Sheldon]

I do live like one. We all do.
We all live like Homo Sapiens.

And a homo sapiens is an ape, mammal, tetrapod, vertebrate, eukaryote,....

Your statement here makes zero sense. Which isn't surprising.
We are humans. And humans are great apes. Humans are also mammals.
None of this takes away anything from us being humans.

Ah, but DNB wants to believe we alone are "the special creation of a deity" and that this whole universe and everything in it was created with us in mind, thus incongruous scientific facts like evolution, human taxonomy, and other animals being demonstrated by scientific research to show grief and even forms of religious reverence, have to be denied, in order to preserve that delusion. Some theists find other ways to rationalise this of course, ways that don't deny the age of the universe or entire scientific theories, that have been accepted by a global scientific consensus for over 162 years.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Sometimes lying is the most moral action and sometimes telling the truth is the most moral action. Depends on the situation.

I don't like lies. If you find it acceptable in a large number of situations, then how can anybody trust you to tell the truth?

 

[Sheldon]

I don't like lies. If you find it acceptable in a large number of situations, then how can anybody trust you to tell the truth?

I don't like peas, or broad beans, that doesn't make their consumption immoral.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't like lies. If you find it acceptable in a large number of situations, then how can anybody trust you to tell the truth?

You're not paying attention to what I said.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No. He's not claiming that it is proof that G-d exists, he merely cites it as an example that according to you, all those people must be irrational.

Actually, I don't think that's what he means at all. I rather suspect that @Sheldon, like me, tends to think that a very great many people who claim belief in God don't really entertain the idea all that deeply. Consider how many people "sin" so much of the time -- how many of the supposed "God's Laws" are broken each and every day. Heck, Christians even admit it, claiming (ad nauseum) to be "sinners" in need of salvation.

But we also note that, in a kind of reverse Pascal's Wager, these same people believe that God will punish those who sin. And what could possibly be worse than the punishment of an omnipotent deity? And yet they do it over and over again anyway.

How many priests have molested children? Priests! How many ordinary human Christians deny Christ every single day when they wrong others? Every Christian knows the following, from Matthew 25:

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

How many of those Christians do you think live those words every day when they rail against immigrants, when they spew hatred at their gay brothers and sisters, when they denigrate people of other races?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don't like lies. If you find it acceptable in a large number of situations, then how can anybody trust you to tell the truth?

Typical black and white thinking.

The hypothetical Jewish family might hide in the home of hypothetical french dude X.
They would do so because they trust him to be a decent, moral and ethical person.

Meaning that they trust that when the Gestapo asks X if he knows where the jews are hiding, that he'll lie about their whereabouts.

There are countless different types / categories of lies.
To say that they are all "bad" accross the board, means that one either hasn't thought this through at all, or one has no moral compass and instead one adheres to some dogmatic authoritarian black and white reasoning.

There's a category of "lies" which are lies to protect the well-being of innocent people.
How could such lies ever be wrong?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Typical black and white thinking.

The hypothetical Jewish family might hide in the home of hypothetical french dude X.
They would do so because they trust him to be a decent, moral and ethical person.

Meaning that they trust that when the Gestapo asks X if he knows where the jews are hiding, that he'll lie about their whereabouts.

There are countless different types / categories of lies.
To say that they are all "bad" accross the board, means that one either hasn't thought this through at all, or one has no moral compass and instead one adheres to some dogmatic authoritarian black and white reasoning.

There's a category of "lies" which are lies to protect the well-being of innocent people.
How could such lies ever be wrong?

You said it much better than I did. Thank you!

 

[muhammad_isa]

To say that they are all "bad" accross the board, means that one either hasn't thought this through at all, or one has no moral compass and instead one adheres to some dogmatic authoritarian black and white reasoning..

Don't be silly..
Where does it end?

Many people think that it is OK to lie about their income .. who's to say whether they are right? You?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Don't be silly..

"Silly"?????

You think it's "silly" to state that lying to the Gestapo about where Jews are hiding is actually more moral then to just snitch on them and thereby basicly signing their death warrant?????

For real????

Where does it end?

It ends in the same place where it begins: basic human decency, ethics and morals.

To tell a lie to get yourself promoted over somebody who deserves it more then you do = bad
To tell a lie to get yourself out of a crime you committed = bad

To tell a lie to prevent a girl from being raped = good
To tell a lie to prevent a whole family of being killed = good


It's not hard. Not if you have a moral compass, anyway.

Many people think that it is OK to lie about their income .. who's to say whether they are right? You?

It depends what the motivation and context is.

If it's on a tax form to commit fraud, then bad.
If it's in a social situation to prevent bragging and making others feel bad = decent
If it's in a situation where lying about your wealth means lower chances of your loved ones being kidnapped for ransom money = good.

The morality of a lie doesn't depend on the naked fact of it being a lie. It depends on the reason for the lie, the motivation behind the lie and the desired goal / purpose of the lie.


Seriously, you should be able to figure these things out for yourself.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It depends what the motivation and context is.

If it's on a tax form to commit fraud, then bad.
If it's in a social situation to prevent bragging and making others feel bad = decent
If it's in a situation where lying about your wealth means lower chances of your loved ones being kidnapped for ransom money = good.

The morality of a lie doesn't depend on the naked fact of it being a lie. It depends on the reason for the lie, the motivation behind the lie and the desired goal / purpose of the lie.


Seriously, you should be able to figure these things out for yourself.

Don't agree. Lying is bad.
If one has to lie in all these situations that you cite, then there is something wrong with the place that you live in, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't claim to never lie, because I'm an imperfect human being.
..but I CAN say that I hate lies, and it would be have to be EXCEPTIONAL circumstances for me to feel it was justified.
Exceptional means just that .. lying is no good .. even jokingly.

NB Incidentally .. I am talking about in society .. not a war situation
..furthermore, there should not be people carrying guns in a non-war situation. A society where everybody has to carry guns shows that there is something fundamentally wrong, imo.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Don't agree. Lying is bad.
If one has to lie in all these situations that you cite, then there is something wrong with the place that you live in, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't claim to never lie, because I'm an imperfect human being.
..but I CAN say that I hate lies, and it would be have to be EXCEPTIONAL circumstances for me to feel it was justified.
Exceptional means just that .. lying is no good .. even jokingly.

NB Incidentally .. I am talking about in society .. not a war situation
..furthermore, there should not be people carrying guns in a non-war situation. A society where everybody has to carry guns shows that there is something fundamentally wrong, imo.

I don't want to live in your world where lying to Nazis to save someone's life is immoral.
This type of thinking is too black and white and does not reflect the actual reality we find ourselves in.
Thanks anyway.
I'll take secular morality over obedience to religious dictates any day of the week. It's the more moral position to take, imo.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Don't agree. Lying is bad.

So a snitch in world war 2 who rats on the jews knowing full well that it will them be killed....
To you that person is a stand-up ethical fellow with high morals who needs to be praised for his brutal honesty?

Funny. Just how morally bankrupt can you get.........

If one has to lie in all these situations that you cite, then there is something wrong with the place that you live in, as far as I'm concerned.

Reality doesn't change by dreaming of eutopian worlds where no such things as nazi's, rapists and kidnappers exist.

I don't claim to never lie, because I'm an imperfect human being.

First, I think the idea of an "imperfect human" is an oxymorron because it assumes that there is such a thing as a "perfect" human. I don't even know what that would be like. What is a "perfect" human?

Secondly, it also implies that NEVER telling a lie is a prerequisite for being "perfect".
So if being "perfect" means that one will happily send jewish families to their deaths, feeling good about oneself for being "honest", then I can honestly tell you to that I wouldn't to be "perfect". Nor would I want to be around such "perfect" humans.

Being "perfect" thus apparently means having no compassion, no moral standards and no ability of basic contextual moral reasoning.

..but I CAN say that I hate lies, and it would be have to be EXCEPTIONAL circumstances for me to feel it was justified.

Well, you just dismissed all examples I just gave you.
So apparently, you don't consider preventing rape and murder "exceptional" enough.

I wouldn't want you to be my neighbor.

Exceptional means just that .. lying is no good .. even jokingly.

Except when it is.

NB Incidentally .. I am talking about in society .. not a war situation

No. You are talking in general. You make sweeping absolutist statements without ever putting any type of disclaimer on it to limit the situational context in any way shape or form.
And when I give you specific scenario's to make the point, you dismiss them with a handwave and call them "silly".

..furthermore, there should not be people carrying guns in a non-war situation. A society where everybody has to carry guns shows that there is something fundamentally wrong, imo.

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. No idea why you suddenly are yapping about people carrying guns.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. No idea why you suddenly are yapping about people carrying guns.

Why doesn't that surprise me?
A society in which people were not in competition with each other, lying to each other "to make a buck", would have no need for guns.
That is how I see it.

A society that wishes for their brother what they wish for themselves would have no need to lie to each other, or shoot each other.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why doesn't that surprise me?

Because you know that the actual subject of the conversation is the morality of telling lies, which has nothing to do with carrying guns?

A society in which people were not in competition with each other, lying to each other "to make a buck", would have no need for guns.
That is how I see it.

But we live in the society in which we actually live. Not in the eutopian society you would like it to be.
And the reality is that in the society that we do live in, the morality of a lie lies in the motivation, purpose and goal - not in the naked fact of it being a lie.

You can go and live in lala-land if you want and pretend as if it's "better" to be honest to nazi's about the whereabouts of jews. But the reality is that it isn't.

The reality is that to tell the truth in that setting is despicable.

A society that wishes for their brother what they wish for themselves would have no need to lie to each other, or shoot each other.

And in a society where number 2 came out as roses, public toilets wouldn't smell bad.
But alas...................

 

[muhammad_isa]

And the reality is that in the society that we do live in, the morality of a lie lies in the motivation, purpose and goal - not in the naked fact of it being a lie..

Naturally it is all about intention.
That does not change the fact that generally speaking, lies are bad.

You keep going on about nazis, as if we are surrounded by them.
I am well aware that there are racists and nationalists in the society where I live, but that does not cause me to lie. as yet.

What do you think makes up a society, other than ourselves?
If we can't set a good example, then who will?

 

[DNB]

Then neither does yours. Everyone is an atheist in regard to another person's religion.

Discernment is derived from wisdom. Something did not come from nothing, and morality did not come from stardust and protoplasm.

 

[DNB]

So it is not always immoral to lie, and in fact, depending on the situation, lying could be the most moral action one could take.
That's what I've been saying all along.

It's always immoral, just doesn't always warrant the full penalty of the law.

 

[DNB]

Once you have demonstrated that "men are spiritual beings" (Not women too, or ... ?), then that is the time to believe it.

Your beliefs about atheists don't ring true for me. I will accept whatever is demonstrably evident. The reason I don't believe in your God is because I have not seen any good evidence to convince me that said God exists. I used to believe, and then realized I didn't have any good reasons to do so.

Man has a spiritual dimension to his constitution. He can discern things that are unseen and unquantifiable. Some are wiser and more perceptive than others, and some are downright shallow and oblivious. Either way, there is a spiritual warfare in this world that has motivated man to commit such heinous crimes that one can barely fathom.
Man, does not act in a pragmatic manner like all other creatures on earth, he is influenced by spiritual perversions and wickedness.

 

[DNB]

Tell that to my ex wife. Though why you think all relationships should conform to achieving one result that you prefer is baffling. If two (or more) consenting adults are happy, and no one is being harmed, more power to their elbow as far as I am concerned.

Define 'not being harmed'. Are you unaware of how certain acts can destroy one's character?

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's always immoral, just doesn't always warrant the full penalty of the law.

Exactly.
If we think that lies can be often justified, we are very likely to lie, not only to others but ourselves as well.
eg. it's alright to lie under oath because of [such-and-such]

One of the worst things we can do is lie about G-d for worldly gain.