I got a question for you guys!

[Buttons*]

Well, I've heard that argument many times but I still can't fathom why a God would want (or allow) little kids to be raped and murdered. What could they possibly learn as they cry out for their mommies?

Well, I know a girl who was raped as a child, by her brother. She doesn't think that it was a good thing that happened to her, and she does realize that it's messed her up quite a lot, but she also sees how, in part, she's a lot more ok when bad things happen in life. She's able to sit back and think, "Is this really something bad or can I work through it?" Not everyone has her courage.

 

[Buttercup]

Well, I know a girl who was raped as a child, by her brother. She doesn't think that it was a good thing that happened to her, and she does realize that it's messed her up quite a lot, but she also sees how, in part, she's a lot more ok when bad things happen in life. She's able to sit back and think, "Is this really something bad or can I work through it?" Not everyone has her courage.

Oh I'm sure we could come up with millions of stories like that...my mom had a horrible childhood in and out of foster homes and she turned out relatively sane. Your friend sounds like she has a good head on her shoulders and I hope she got counseling.

Still, I can no longer reconcile a loving God (Abrahamic) with creating humans capable of doing some of the things we do to each other. It just doesn't make sense. Ontop of that, we have the threat of hell. So, you can be a girl of 18 who's raped and murdered plus she also receives the double whammy of being thrown in hell because she refused to believe in Jesus/God? And this is a supposed loving God? Ugh, I hate it all anymore. Sorry.

 

[Buttons*]

Oh I'm sure we could come up with millions of stories like that...my mom had a horrible childhood in and out of foster homes and she turned out relatively sane. Your friend sounds like she has a good head on her shoulders and I hope she got counseling.

Heehee, I'm glad she did, or we wouldn't have you *hugs*

Still, I can no longer reconcile a loving God (Abrahamic) with creating humans capable of doing some of the things we do to each other. It just doesn't make sense. Ontop of that, we have the threat of hell. So, you can be a girl of 18 who's raped and murdered plus she also receives the double whammy of being thrown in hell because she refused to believe in Jesus/God? And this is a supposed loving God? Ugh, I hate it all anymore. Sorry.

Just so you know, I do agree with you. I'm not a Christian. But I thought that the thought itself can be at least defended - if not completely sound.

 

[Buttercup]

Just so you know, I do agree with you. I'm not a Christian. But I thought that the thought itself can be at least defended - if not completely sound.

Oh, I know...I figured you were just arguing the other side. I do that sometimes too.

 

[Makaveli]

I agree with buttercup. And no matter how you try to explain it with soft determinism, it wont fly especially since it seems you are essentially saying that many of these murders and rapes and etc... are part of gods big plan. Cause if he knows us so well, then he knows that many would do this. I mean sure, we could potentially not kill people, but the crazies want to, need to, etc... and they will, therefore following the good old predetermined fabric sewn by god.

So what if they are? People seem to want God to be some great benefactor to them, bestowing them with bliss on the mortal plane and then with unending happiness in the afterlife; he's "cruel and unusual and evil and blah blah blah" if he doesn't give everything to people on a silver platter. The best of us are shaped through adversity, not through ease of living.

God knows us all better than we know ourselves, and yes, it could be argued that if this is true, then it follows that he knows we will, or that we have a predisposition to, rape, murder or any other heinous crime. However, simply knowing does not equal condoning, nor does it equal allowance. We are given free will so that we may make choices, and any choice we make is a part of the divine plan for humanity. The suffering of one may be a lesson to another, spurring greater heights of moral perfection. Every action creates ripples.

And really, is it even useful to debate God and his omniscience from the point of view of a provincial human?

 

[Buttercup]

We are given free will so that we may make choices, and any choice we make is a part of the divine plan for humanity.

So, if you, Makaveli had the power to create a being from dust, you wouldn't be partly responsible if this creature murdered someone? How about if you intentionally gave this being the capability to murder and you knew it was a possibility?

If your creature killed my daughter not only would I hunt down the creature, I'd come looking for you because you created this monster fully knowing his predilections. As I said before...I could care less about free will. Your creature still murdered my daughter with your help. I'm surprised you don't see the problem from this angle.

And really, is it even useful to debate God and his omniscience from the point of view of a provincial human?

Of course it is. If one doesn't believe in God, why not?

 

[rageoftyrael]

True, i don't have to believe in a being to debate the rights and wrongs of him. For example, i can sit back and talk about fictional characters in books till i go blue in the face, and it is quite fun.

Also, as an agnostic, this has extra factors, cause if i ever had evidence that god was real, i would have to know that he was a decent being before i ever even considered worshipping him. You see, i don't bow easily, to anyone. And if the being, that may or may not exist, is evil, his existence becomes moot. I would suffer hell before going to heaven, knealing before an unjust creator.

Which might make me a satanist, if all these things could be proven true, eh? Honestly, if i found what i felt to be compelling proof of a god's existence, i would probably just acknowledge him/her/it/??? and be done with it. If he wants to toss me in whatever hell there is because i didn't worship him, than too bad for me, i guess.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Here's a question, though.

How much responsibility can one put on the parents of a person who's done bad things, that the parents had no possibility of having direct control over?

I mean... parenting goes so far, but parents are not the only influence in a person's life. Could you put the responsibility to the parents for bringing a child into the world, knowing full well the possibilities open to this child, and that as much as you can teach him/her, they must be free to find their own paths, their own ways.

 

[rageoftyrael]

but parents dont KNOW what their child will do. They guide, nurture, and teach,(hopefully) but they don't know the future. And since most parents don't plan their children, it is not even a close analogy. God supposedly knows all, period. He allowed this all to happen.

 

[smitten508]

First, free will is not scriptural... Second, God didn't MAKE evil, we do that quite well enough on our own. Saying that God Almighty is a jerk and whatnot is like all these whining kids who scream about mom and dad. Christians don't say the devil made me do it, they realize that they made a poor choice. God created our Universe, there is nothing evil in it. Name ONE natural thing that is evil in and of itself.... Can you? I DO belive that God gives free will. If a parent knows that their child is reaching toward a flame they reach down and stop them, but if the kid continually reaches out, even though you scream 'hot' and the child burns themselves, are the parents to blame??? NO!! The child makes the choice to touch what it has been told is going to hurt it. How then can anyone call God a jerk, when right and wrong have been explained to you? Is it His fault that WE mess up? NO!!! We havebeen telling God since the beginning that we know how to do it better, do you blame Him for effectually saying,"fine, prove it"? :candle: thats the light of truth that will lead you home to Christ

 

[rageoftyrael]

dont think you understand where i am coming from with this question, but hey, to each their own.

 

[Buttercup]

Here's a question, though.

How much responsibility can one put on the parents of a person who's done bad things, that the parents had no possibility of having direct control over?

I mean... parenting goes so far, but parents are not the only influence in a person's life. Could you put the responsibility to the parents for bringing a child into the world, knowing full well the possibilities open to this child, and that as much as you can teach him/her, they must be free to find their own paths, their own ways.

A parent is not a close analogy to God. God (we're talking about the Abrahamic God) is the initial creator of EVERYTHING in the universe. Your parents just had sex and made you. It's not the same.

I've said this before on the forum but I equate God to Dr. Frankenstein, the movie. Dr. Frankenstein created a monster in his laboratory completely from scratch (like God created us). This monster ended up killing his brother and Dr. Frankenstein felt enormous guilt and responsibility as the creator. He was going to kill his monster but didn't.

That's what I'm getting at. God, the master architect, created humans with the ability to murder. If he's omnipotent and omniscient, he KNEW (or at least had a good idea) that men would kill.

 

[S-word]

You know, this is why i think the bible is a big load of horse manure. Even the christians should not base their beliefs off of that thing. It is so loaded with inconsistencies and hypocrisy, it isn't even funny.

Isn't it said that god said that he gave us free will? Cause if he did, but yet he is omniscient, than he's a jerk who lied. There is no free will in something that cannot be changed. Free will doesn't exist, even if we think it does, if our lives are preordained.

So, in my opinion, if god is real, and the bible is actually more consistent than i think, why would anyone worship god? He is a hypocrite, a liar, and just an all around jerk. Throughout all of this note that, i never say he isn't real. Just that if he is, and the bible gets it right, he mindf*cked us with that promise.

I'm sorry guys, i went off cause the reason i asked was due to a question i had in mind earlier. It was if god exists, why is there evil? I don't want to here any theodicies, cause they can all be fairly easily refuted. If he is all loving, all knowing, and all powerful, then there is no good reason for us to suffer, period. And if he allows us to suffer, when there is no reason for it, he is a horrible, whatever he is.

I ask you, how can christians call this being merciful? He saves us from what? WHAT HE CREATED! I will never follow god, even if irrefutable evidence is put forward that he is real. And then, i would probably go to hell, and i would probably think that the better choice than bowing to an unjust king. Of course, god would have to exist for that to be true, and im still an agnostic, so whatever.

Settle down there sonny. I’d hate to see the “Big Jerk” the name that you have given to my God, come down on you real hard, which He will do if you continue to offend those who are in tune with the indwelling ancestral spirit who was in the beginning and has become who I am, who you are and all that exists; although it matters not to Him what names you may call Him, for it takes more than “Little Jerks” like yourself to offend Him personally.

But now to your question: Our ancestral spirit who was in the beginning and has become all that exists, does not record his own words as he dwells within the inner dimension that coexists within this three dimensional world, (For the kingdom of God is within you) and he speaks to us through those who are in tune with our indwelling spirit .

If through one of his obedient scribes, the Lord was to reveal that he is omnipresent, that is, that He pervades all that exists, and is the divine animating principle or the soul and activating force of the Living universal body; then it stands to reason that He who is the spirit that is in all, must therefore be omniscient.

From the “Good News Bible” Jeremiah 23: 23, “I am a God who is everywhere and not in one place only. No one can hide where I cannot see them. Do you not know that I am everywhere in heaven and earth?

 

[smitten508]

Parents are the PERFECT symbol for God, or at least thats what every ancient religion has thought... Parents DO indeed know that their children will scrape knees and such, just as every parent worth their salt knows that their kids will argue with other kids. Also if read fully, I stated that parents that SEE a child reaching for the dangerous would warn and save for a time, but enough is enough, sometimes we as humans must learn for ourselves... Free will is a gift, that we CHOOSE to love God and neighbor. That we aren't like other species, driven soley by instinct. Again, God cannot be held accountable because we as humans can't seem to get it right. Divinity has laid down certain rules/laws to help us as a people. When we do not follow these principles, it does not fault God.
And even taking another approach... If God, as Almighty Creator, wants to "program" us with a desire to kill, rape and conquer, what right or bussiness of ours would it be to complain? If a man destroys something he ALONE has created, it's his to do. And if a woman decides to destroy the work of her own hands, who can tell her otherwise? This being said, the arguement that God has 'no right' to allow such or that IT is intrinsically evil for doing such is assinine. If creation was created, then we AS CREATION have no say or judgement in how IT runs the show...:candle:

 

[rageoftyrael]

i said nothing about his rights. I was questioning said god's character. So, while we may not be able to do anything about said creator destroying their creations, our opinions can certainly be against the idea. And, whether you like it or not, i don't have to like god, i don't have to even believe in him.

And just to clarify to s-word, i don't hate god, i simply said that if god was the way i described him, then i would much dislike him. Though i find it funny that you think god will punish me for calling me out, and then go on to say im too insignificant for him to care.

yes, this thread was about the character of a certain god. If your god is not like this, than you have no reason to be upset by my words. This goes for other threads as well. Oh, and please don't mistake theoretical questions as afronts to your god anymore, it just shows your ignorance.

 

[Squaell]

Best answer i can give you is that when you will know God and will have the relationship with him like son or at least some relationship you will know how he is but first you need to make first step to him and try to build this relationship and some day you will know him and will not ask questions like this. Because they not lead to solution just to more questions. When you want to make money you not talk about you go to work , so when you want to know God make some effort so you can know him. It is good to ask but you need to believe without that you just will ask again and again and never find him.

 

[rageoftyrael]

pointless drivel, squaell. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but why would i try to get to know something i don't even believe in? It's like telling me to stop hating your imaginary friend, instead to get to know him. Maybe that will solve all my problems, making friends with a figment of your imagination. I must be in a bad mood, i'm not usually this much of a jerk. IF and when i get proof that there is a god, then i will attempt to speak to said god. If i told you to light candles and sacrifice a goat to speak to spirits, would you do it unless you had proof if would work? Enough said.

 

[Squaell]

If i could give people somehow what i have experienced in life i could turn whole world instantly to believers , but i can't so everybody need to find it out alone.

 

[rageoftyrael]

i doubt it, cause some of us don't believe in god, so we don't presume that every little thing is attributed to god. But it's cool if you think that.

 

[shortfade2]

wow. ok dude, calm down. There is no need to act like Lois from Malcolm in the Middle. We can discuss this like civilized people.

2 Kings 2:21 (New International Version)


21 Then he went out to the spring and threw the salt into it, saying, "This is what the LORD says: 'I have healed this water. Never again will it cause death or make the land unproductive.' "

If you think this is a fairytale, I would like to tell you that a friend of mine traveled to this city outside of Jerusalem,lapped up the water, and bottled it. He left the water in a bottle for 3 years. We traveled down to Texas (Where they live) and stayed there for a week. On day one he took the cap off, and set it out in the sun for the first 6 days, and on our last day there our family and there family took sips of the water. Better than any water out of the tap, or water that goes bad, and grows algae in the sun. (Which when we got home our family did alone, just to test it. That one tasted like crap.)