I have desided to get the Covid vaccine

[Saint Frankenstein]

Stating that fact in isolation for the purpose of
making vaccination look significantly dangerous
as Covid 19 is highly misleading.

It's also true that homosexuals have raped children.
But that's a fact I'd never state because it serves
only to falsely demonize a group.

I'm not demonizing anyone. One must be informed of all risks. People make their own decisions. If you want the shots, that's your choice and I won't stand in your way. Best of luck to you. Shots are not a moral issue to me. I believe very strongly in bodily autonomy. It's a basic freedom to decide what you want or don't want to put into your own body.

 

[Revoltingest]

Human experience always trumps anything. You won't win with such esteemed corrections.

Sometimes I have useful influence.
Sometimes I don't. I take my chances.

 

[Revoltingest]

I went with AMD personally. But that’s because I’m a gamer

I'm a Moderna fan (the most available at the time).

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not demonizing anyone. One must be informed of all risks. People make their own decisions. If you want the shots, that's your choice and I won't stand in your way. Best of luck to you. Shots are not a moral issue to me. I believe very strongly in bodily autonomy. It's a basic freedom to decide what you want or don't want to put into your own body.

I favor bodily autonomy too.
CT will do what he wants.
I also believe in free speech.
So I'll try to influence what he wants.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think it's a false dichotomy to state that someone's being an adult necessarily means they can make the best decisions for their body and health care. We often see numerous examples to the contrary ranging from adults who smoke and abuse drugs all the way to ones who flout preventive measures against COVID and end up infecting themselves and others.

I'm not talking about @Conscious thoughts, by the way; he has mentioned that he made his decision after consulting his doctors, and I'm in no position to judge his specific situation. I'm talking generally about the idea that adults can always be trusted to make sound decisions regarding health--or anything else--even when they lack or reject expert knowledge on a subject.

And it's still their choice as an adult to decide, hopefully after considering the risks. If you wish to drink yourself silly, smoke cigarettes, eat unhealthy diets, etc. that's your choice. In a free society, people have liberty to make their own choices for their bodies. The alternative is rather unthinkable.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm not demonizing anyone. One must be informed of all risks. People make their own decisions. If you want the shots, that's your choice and I won't stand in your way. Best of luck to you. Shots are not a moral issue to me. I believe very strongly in bodily autonomy. It's a basic freedom to decide what you want or don't want to put into your own body.

I wish more people applied this logic to elective abortion too. I'm not being sarcastic either; we'd see much less opposition to reproductive rights if they did.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I favor bodily autonomy too.
CT will do what he wants.
I also believe in free speech.
So I'll try to influence what he wants.

And he can totally ignore you. Kind of hard to ignore government mandates that seek to make you a pariah and shut you out of society, though. That's force.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I wish more people applied this logic to elective abortion too. I'm not being sarcastic either; we'd see much less opposition to reproductive rights if they did.

There's a good reason why pro-life people don't but that's not for this thread.

 

[Debater Slayer]

And it's still their choice as an adult to decide, hopefully after considering the risks. If you wish to drink yourself silly, smoke cigarettes, eat unhealthy diets, etc. that's your choice. In a free society, people have liberty to make their own choices for their bodies. The alternative is rather unthinkable.

We don't disagree. Making COVID vaccines mandatory is a gray area for me because I can see merit to both sides of the argument.

I just hope an effective treatment comes out soon so that mandates are no longer this much of an issue and we can go back to our lives without having to worry about vaccination or lack thereof as much anymore.

 

[Revoltingest]

And he can totally ignore you.

He certainly can.
But he won't.
He's an avid reader, open minded, & will consider what I say.
If he disagrees, that is OK. We both tolerate differences.

 

[SomeRandom]

I have to wonder. This choice vs vaccine debate we’re having. Did it occur back when they were trying to get Tuberculoses (TB) under control via vaccination?
I mean that disease was so ubiquitous they even had a colloquial nickname for it (consumption.)
And for that matter why are people not up in arms over mandatory childhood vaccinations? Diphtheria, polio, TB etc. Which have been standard for like the last 50 years or more.
I mean isn’t that arguably worse since you’re literally forcing children to take medication? Not adults who (presumably) can give fully informed consent?

The silence is rather deafening. Wouldn’t you all agree?

Have we really become that complacent?
Are we too desensitised to suffering that we are now doubling down against the advice of all our elders who now shudder at the memories of polio outbreaks and begged for vaccination to end to spread? Really guys?

 

[Debater Slayer]

He certainly can.
But he won't.
He's an avid reader, open minded, & will consider what I say.
If he disagrees, that is OK. We both tolerate differences.

I'd rather entirely leave the decision up to CT and his doctors, the reason being that on the off chance that he has an unlucky tendency to have severe reactions to vaccines, only his doctors can determine that and inform him of it.

I wouldn't simply recommend them to him in this specific case and then go "oops!" if he had such a reaction. Sometimes you have to step back and defer to the experts who are more familiar with the situation.

 

[Rival]

Diphtheria, polio, TB etc. Which have been standard for like the last 50 years or more.

Because they've been standard for this long. They've demonstrated efficacy and low-risk.

We're already on multiple boosters with a vaccine folks have taken just this year and myriad side effects.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I have to wonder. This choice vs vaccine debate we’re having. Did it occur back when they were trying to get Tuberculoses (TB) under control via vaccination?
I mean that disease was so ubiquitous they even had a colloquial nickname for it (consumption.)
And for that matter why are people not up in arms over mandatory childhood vaccinations? Diphtheria, polio, TB etc. Which have been standard for like the last 50 years or more.
I mean isn’t that arguably worse since you’re literally forcing children to take medication? Not adults who (presumably) can five fully informed consent?

The silence is rather deafening. Wouldn’t you all agree?

In the US, you don't have to get those vaccines if you don't want to. You're not mandated by law to get vaccines as a child, as far as I know. The worse that could happen is that some states won't let you attend public school or there's certain fields you can't work in that require immunizations. But you can still go to the store, go to a concert, go to the gym, go to a theater, go to a restaurant, work at most jobs, etc. You will be not shut out from society. There's always been parents who opposed vaccinating their children and they still live in society as productive members.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I have to wonder. This choice vs vaccine debate we’re having. Did it occur back when they were trying to get Tuberculoses (TB) under control via vaccination?
I mean that disease was so ubiquitous they even had a colloquial nickname for it (consumption.)
And for that matter why are people not up in arms over mandatory childhood vaccinations? Diphtheria, polio, TB etc. Which have been standard for like the last 50 years or more.
I mean isn’t that arguably worse since you’re literally forcing children to take medication? Not adults who (presumably) can give fully informed consent?

The silence is rather deafening. Wouldn’t you all agree?

Supposedly, one difference is that COVID vaccines are newer and were developed faster. I don't personally see that as an issue given that they still passed all of the same phases of clinical trials as other vaccines, but that's one argument I've encountered.

I've been saying for a long time that vaccine mandates are nothing new, and I think many people aren't up in arms about mandates of older vaccines simply because they're used to said mandates. The novelty of COVID and its vaccines is a convenient talking point for fearmongering and conspiracy theories.

 

[SomeRandom]

In the US, you don't have to get those vaccines if you don't want to. You're not mandated by law to get vaccines as a child, as far as I know. The worse that could happen is that some states won't let you attend public school or there's certain fields you can't work in that require immunizations. But you can still go to the store, go to a concert, go to the gym, go to a theater, go to a restaurant, work at most jobs, etc. You will be not shut out from society. There's always been parents who opposed vaccinating their children and they still live in society as productive members.

Maybe they should be. I mean aren’t the anti vax movement literally to blame for the return of previously eradicated diseases?
That might have been mitigated or reduced by such measures. Arguably

 

[Debater Slayer]

Because they've been standard for this long. They've demonstrated efficacy and low-risk.

We're already on multiple boosters with a vaccine folks have taken just this year and myriad side effects.

The side effects of COVID vaccines aren't "myriad": both their frequency and severity are in line with other vaccines:

Coronavirus (COVID-19) vaccines side effects and safety

It's not impossible to get side effects from COVID vaccines, but there's no evidence that they occur any more often than side effects of other vaccines or that most of them are remotely severe.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Maybe they should be. I mean aren’t the anti vax movement literally to blame for the return of previously eradicated diseases?

Well, then we should ban travel from developing countries, too. No more third worlders.

 

[SomeRandom]

Well, then we should ban travel from developing countries, too. No more third worlders.

You guys don’t have measures for such travel? We’ve had precautionary measures for such travels to developing countries for like years now. Arguably tightened by the aftermath of 9/11

Also I don’t think you’re allowed to travel to developing countries at the moment. Not since all the international borders were shut down.
Or at least the quarantine measures are far more strict. It is in Australiastan last I checked. Though they are constantly updating them. So I dunno. We only have a travel bubble for India to be put in place soon.

 

[Rival]

The side effects of COVID vaccines aren't "myriad": both their frequency and severity are in line with other vaccines:

Coronavirus (COVID-19) vaccines side effects and safety

It's not impossible to get side effects from COVID vaccines, but there's no evidence that they occur any more often than side effects of other vaccines or that most of them are remotely severe.

Some folks have had heart attacks, myocarditis is common enough, some folks have reported vomiting, nerve damage, paralysis and more. I would maybe retract 'myriad', but 'bloody crazy' sounds about right for paralysis and myocarditis et al.